Weird 12V Starter Performance

4420 Views 14 Replies 5 Participants Last post by jime, Apr 15, 2012

jime

Discussion Starter · Apr 14, 2012

I'm still dealing with issues on my "new" 2001 Gen1. The 12 volt starter was recently replaced by previous owner with a unit that he was able to get through NAPA, but it seems to act kinda wierd. When it engages, it only turns the engine over once or twice before ist disengages. I watched the mechanic install the starter and he inspected the ring gear, which looked fine, so tis a puzzlement. Any theories?

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

Willie Williford

· #2 · Apr 14, 2012

Check the starter relay.
Have never had my engine use the 12V starter for starting.I checked it once by turning off the IMA switch. Sounded like a dodge slant six.
How did the mechanic "bench check" the starter? (method)
HTH
Willie

jime

Discussion Starter · #3 · Apr 14, 2012

It is a "new" rebuilt starter. Not sure what the mechanic may have done after I left other than install the NAPA rebuilt.

I kind though relay also, but the symptoms don't sound right. It engages for a revolution or two then just whiz's like the bendix drive has disengaged and the starter is still turning. Maybe a low 12v battery woulld cause that - gotta check that one.

Willie Williford

· #4 · Apr 14, 2012

On any "electrical" problem the first thing to do is make sure the 12V battery is up to snuff, even with some IMA problems, a low 12V battery can result in weird things.
Got a way to measure the voltage or amperage at the starter.?

HTH
Willie

jime

Discussion Starter · #5 · Apr 15, 2012

Willie Williford said:
On any "electrical" problem the first thing to do is make sure the 12V battery is up to snuff, even with some IMA problems, a low 12V battery can result in weird things.
Got a way to measure the voltage or amperage at the starter.?

HTH
Willie

I can measure the voltage at the starter. But, now some things I heard from the former mechanic are beginning to make sense. When he put in the new grounds, he attached one directly to a starter bolt. So he was experiencing this problem earlier. Not thatthat helps solve the problem, obviously the prior mechanic didn't.

I'll get on the voltage levels. Might be as simple as a dirty positive terminal.

Rush

· #6 · Apr 15, 2012

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - First of all why is your car using the 12v starter to start? Is you battery pack not working? The only time the 12 v starter is used is when the battery pack is not working properly and you have a IMA code.

Normally the battery pack turns the electric motor over and that starts the car. Is that not happening with yours?

samwichse

· #7 · Apr 15, 2012

He has a bad battery and is running as a straight gasser.

jime

Discussion Starter · #8 · Apr 15, 2012

I am no longer running it as a straight gaser. I restored a small amount of IMA battery capacity and with my conservative driving style, I have no DTC or IMA light. I shut off the IMA to force 12 volt starts so I could diagnose a starter problem I suspected. Gonna make some measurements this morning. Thank you for the interest

jime

Discussion Starter · #9 · Apr 15, 2012

Wouldn't ya know, this morning the 12 volt starter seems to work perfectly. Looks to be an intermittant problem. I'm going to clean the positive terminal and wait for it to act up again. I'll also check my batter voltage next time I see the problem. Thanks for all the help

Willie Williford

· #10 · Apr 15, 2012

When checking the battery (12V). Do a "load" test rather than just a voltage test.
(A simple way is to turn on all the lights, engage the AC, turn the fan for the heater on max. and then push the brake pedal while and before starting.)

HTH
Willie

jime

Discussion Starter · #11 · Apr 15, 2012

Confession time

I may be be triping myself into false symptoms. The starter was producing the odd behavior while I was doing compression tests on this "new" car, so I had the coils out and plugs out. Didn't think that would effect the 12v starter operation, but these are tricky little beasts. After 3 years of ownership, I continue to be fascinated at some of the things they do.

Willie Williford

· #12 · Apr 15, 2012

Finally the truth comes into detail.
If I remember right, the G1 starter will "kick out" after a very short duration to prevent the starter from self destructing.
(It's very important to give ALL the details on a problem solving request.)

Willie

AbCaRed00

· #13 · Apr 15, 2012 (Edited)

Wondering from something I may have read in the archives: Could it be there's some dielectric oxidation under the apparently solid ground straps and the aluminum surface underneath needs re-abraded/cleaned up shiny for less resistance?
_____________________________
Seem to recall with the 225cid slant six there were problems with a 'dodgy' ceramic resistor mounted on the firewall in their starter circuits. Here's linked the startup sound of the Dodge 225cid like Willie says for the uninitiated to give a listen to the first few secs

In the very cold -25C weather when 12V starter actuates first time in the day, I don't get it quite so bad yet as in the vid, [at least sitting inside the car], but the sound's uncannily similar for a few secs at least, especially if car's left dormant a few days unheated. The resistance issue was a common dodge slant six starting problem shared on our shortlived 'new' 225cid '64 Valiant. It refused to start on more than a few days largely on that account. Wonder if just the ground straps connectoin on the Insight is the culprit.

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jime

Discussion Starter · #14 · Apr 15, 2012

Willie Williford said:
Finally the truth comes into detail.
If I remember right, the G1 starter will "kick out" after a very short duration to prevent the starter from self destructing.
(It's very important to give ALL the details on a problem solving request.)

Willie

Sorry Willie, my bad. I didn't initially see that what I was doing would produce the troublesome symptoms. I wonder how one is "supposed" to do a compression test (which incidently was quite good at 211 thou). Certainly can't crank on the IMA battery can we

How do you do a compression test?

jime

Discussion Starter · #15 · Apr 15, 2012

Yeah, that is a good suggestion, but I already thoroughly cleaned the ground contact surfaces. There was lots of aluminum oxide to be sanded off. I think the good grounds have cured some of the car problems

AbCaRed00 said:
Wondering from something I may have read in the archives: Could it be there's some dielectric oxidation under the apparently solid ground straps and the aluminum surface underneath needs re-abraded/cleaned up shiny for less resistance?
_____________________________
Seem to recall with the 225cid slant six there were problems with a 'dodgy' ceramic resistor mounted on the firewall in their starter circuits. Here's linked the startup sound of the Dodge 225cid like Willie says for the uninitiated to give a listen to the first few secs
Dodge Power Wagon 225 slant six old start - YouTube
In the very cold -25C weather when 12V starter actuates first time in the day, I don't get it quite so bad yet as in the vid, [at least sitting inside the car], but the sound's uncannily similar for a few secs at least, especially if car's left dormant a few days unheated. The resistance issue was a common dodge slant six starting problem shared on our shortlived 'new' 225cid '64 Valiant. It refused to start on more than a few days largely on that account. Wonder if just the ground straps connectoin on the Insight is the culprit.

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