Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello! I am looking to buy a used Insight. I don't know a lot about them, but I am being drawn to a hybrid and I am I leaning toward an Insight. I would prefer a manual, but would buy either or for the right deal. I like the idea of hypermiling, and frequently drive slow and smooth in my 02 Escort to improve mileage. I get a lot of drivers upset cruising 50 or 55 mph, but I do save gas and pollute less. I drive 85 miles round trip to work and back.
With an Insight, do you have to have a manual transmission to shut down the engine and coast? I mean to get it going again. Like we have a Vibe with a manual transmission, and I kill the ignition and coast, then I put it back in gear and let out the clutch to start the engine. I don't do it much in the Escort because it's an automatic and I don't want to keep using the starter.

Do I have to have a manual in my new Insight to do this?? It appears that coasting automatically shuts down the engine, is that so or does it just idle when coasting. Thanks for your help, I am still trying to learn. Perhaps I can find one in the Oklahoma City area to check out.


Best wishes to all
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
Hello! I am looking to buy a used Insight. I don't know a lot about them, but I am being drawn to a hybrid and I am I leaning toward an Insight. I would prefer a manual, but would buy either or for the right deal. I like the idea of hypermiling, and frequently drive slow and smooth in my 02 Escort to improve mileage. I get a lot of drivers upset cruising 50 or 55 mph, but I do save gas and pollute less. I drive 85 miles round trip to work and back.
With an Insight, do you have to have a manual transmission to shut down the engine and coast? I mean to get it going again. Like we have a Vibe with a manual transmission, and I kill the ignition and coast, then I put it back in gear and let out the clutch to start the engine. I don't do it much in the Escort because it's an automatic and I don't want to keep using the starter.

Do I have to have a manual in my new Insight to do this?? It appears that coasting automatically shuts down the engine, is that so or does it just idle when coasting. Thanks for your help, I am still trying to learn. Perhaps I can find one in the Oklahoma City area to check out.


Best wishes to all
Well I'll take a shot at this.

First if ultimate MPG's are your goal then the manual trans model will get you a lot better MPG than the auto version. The manual transmission versions have "Lean Burn" which lets the engine run a lot leaner than a conventional engine at light engine loads. If your easy on the throttle and driving at moderate speeds than you can keep the engine in Lean Burn and increase your MPG figures dramatically. The automatic versions of the car don't have the Lean Burn feature so you can't get the extra high MPG figures the manual trans model will have.

The Insight only shuts down it's engine when your at a stop....or at 19mph if you have the clutch pressed in and you are braking (in the manual trans model). As soon as you shift into first gear again the engine will auto re-start faster than you can finish pushing the stick all the way into first gear.

On down hills just feather the gas pedal to keep it in Lean Burn mode or if there is no need for load the computer will enter a fuel cut mode...the car is still coasting down the hill (in gear) but the engine isn't receiving any fuel. This can happen till the RPM's slow down to 1000 RPM where fuel will once again be supplied to the engine to keep it from stalling. Your MPG gauge will remain pegged at 150mpg. No need to shut the engine down and re-start...if your super hyper mileing you might get some extra benefit from this technique but I'm not sure.

There is quite a bit of info in the knowledge base (on the left side of the screen) that might help you out also.

Hodakaguy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
A friend of mine just bought a CVT Insight and its lifetime mpg is in the low 50s. I have the manual and have done nearly 70,000 miles in it in 8 years of ownership from new. My overall average is 71.7 mpg, so I guess the info about lean burn is pretty important. We are in the UK, but I imagine the samer applies in the US.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
642 Posts
Your friends Insight would be a CVT import from Japan so i imagine its got lean burn aswell.

With the rpm optimisation and regen right to a stop the JDM CVT's really should be, on paper, the best on fuel consumption.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
one thing you can consider is maintenance costs (big ticket items only) in MT vs CVT.

The battery usually gets bad faster in a MT because of the semi-manual control of the Engine torques and IMA use depending on your gear. CVT's usually have better IMA management.

Also the Catalytic converters usually go bad more often on the MT versions because of the extensive use of lean burn. CVT's usually dont go through cats like the MT does. Cats are expnsive

But then again, a CVT transmission could go bad too, and is more expensive to replace/repair than a Manual Transmission.

So these might offset the savings in MPG, depending on if you face these problems. So when buying a MT, check to make sure when the Catalytic converter or the Batteries were replaced last. (Possibly also O2 sensors and EGR valve; 2 more things known to usually go bad in MT versions)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
The CVT trans is makes the car much quicker than the manual trans as it holds the perfect RPM at full load as were the manual has such large shifting gaps that it can not as easily keep the power on. If you put the gear in low and hit the "S" button on the wheel the car is actually pretty quick.

If you keep the CT trans fluid changed the trans should last at least 200k, the problem with buying a used CVT car is that you don't know how the previous owner drove/maintained it. I have a CVT trans and I wanted a manual for a long time until I drove one but that's my take. Try both if you can.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,632 Posts
The CVT trans is makes the car much quicker than the manual trans as it holds the perfect RPM at full load as were the manual has such large shifting gaps that it can not as easily keep the power on. If you put the gear in low and hit the "S" button on the wheel the car is actually pretty quick. .
If the IMA usage and engine horsepower and torque was the same between the two model types and vehicle weight was the same, the CVT model would be quicker due to optimal RPM as mentioned.

However, the MT model Insight has slightly faster 0-60 times due to:

1) two more horsepower and one more lb/ft of torque.
2) more aggressive IMA battery usage on acceleration.
3) Lighter vehicle weight.

I gladly give up that 1/2 second faster 0-60 time for the benefit of not having to shift gears (even more often compared to other manual transmission cars). The CVT makes this a smooth acceleration. Also, the CVT has SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle) rating whereas the MT only has ULEV rating due to lean burn and a higher compression engine.

The MT does gets the best MPG and the CVT gets second best MPG of all gasoline powered cars that were sold in the US.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
If the IMA usage and engine horsepower and torque was the same between the two model types and vehicle weight was the same, the CVT model would be quicker due to optimal RPM as mentioned.
I'm not sure about that, even. I have yet to see a CVT that can outperform a manual in terms of transmission losses. The higher drag inside a CVT would contribute to the lower fuel economy and slower acceleration.

Has anybody done a side-by-side chassis dyno test of a CVT vs a MT? Or even compared bench dyno vs chassis dyno results for both?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,632 Posts
I'm not sure about that, even. I have yet to see a CVT that can outperform a manual in terms of transmission losses. The higher drag inside a CVT would contribute to the lower fuel economy and slower acceleration.
I agree the CVT has more internal drag due to keeping tension on the steel belt but I also believe that if everything else was equal (engine power, IMA usage, vehicle weight) that the optimal engine RPM advantage would overcome the belt tension drag to end up with a slightly faster vehicle.

But I guess the point is moot because the CVT is designed with a lower horse power and torque engine and programmed to use less IMA. With standard A/C and heavier transmission, the CVT model will always weigh more (unless you start removing parts ). :)

Heck, Honda even uses a different front brake setup on the CVT model.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,698 Posts
I used to me firmly in the Manual camp but having been in and worked on the UK CVT rally car I now appreciate both versions.

Certainly in the UK where the CVT's are all Jap imports with lean burn and same power as manual car it's a simple choice between manual or automatic.

They are both very good in their own ways.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,391 Posts
I used to me firmly in the Manual camp but having been in and worked on the UK CVT rally car I now appreciate both versions.
s with lean burn and same power as manual car it's a simple choice between manual or automatic.

They are both very good in their own ways.
With the Japanese improt lean burn CVT version, how does the gas mileage compare? Can the CVT still get the same 100+ mpg in the same conditions that the manual tans can?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
CVT are getting better mpg's in newer cars that compare apples to apples. If you look at the new Honda Fit and Civic you'll see that in the mpg #'s. Highway econ. is better for the CVT than manual for both Fit and Civic meaning the CVT isn't all that bad, even besting the manual by 2-3 mpg.

The key diff. is the manual version of the Insight has lean burn while the CVT does not. If you could get the CVT with lean burn that might be the ultimate setup for a road car. The so called drag due to the belt can't be that much if the above mentioned cars are getting better mpg than there manual counterparts.

I'd like to add that the manual cars with lean burn tends to eat catalytic converters, a pretty costly bill. You can also feel good that the CVT version is one of the cleanest if not the most clean gasoline engine around.

I don't mean to upset the manual guys I'm just making some good points about the CVT.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,632 Posts
Why did Honda limit the power/lean burn of the US CVT's but enable it in the Japanese automatics?
My guess would be competition with the Prius. The Insight with lean burn has better MPGs than anything else out there but the emissions level does not match the Prius. This is important for some that are into the green thing and want good gas mileage AND lower emissions. By taking out lean burn and replacing the lower cat converter with one that does not have to collect excessive NOx, Honda was able to produce a car just as green as the Prius with better gas mileage.

For US models:

The MT Insight is ULEV
The CVT Insight (gen 1) is SULEV
The Prius models are SULEV
The CVT Insight (gen 2) is ULEV (for some strange reason)

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
The above post sounds about right. The lean burn cars have great mpg (the best) and the
CVT cars have best or close to lowest emissions. I don't think in Japan the emissions are as strict as the US. I think it's smart to have one car go in two directions.

I would bet if you wanted more mpg from the CVT you could just shave the head down a little to get the compression up. Of course doing this would raise the NOX.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,632 Posts
I would bet if you wanted more mpg from the CVT you could just shave the head down a little to get the compression up. Of course doing this would raise the NOX.
The higher compression may raise the combustion temp level a bit higher but probably would not raise the NOx so much to the level of the MT model since there would be no lean burn on the CVT.

Awhile back, I looked at the various part numbers between the MT and CVT and found that Honda choose to use different pistons between the two models to create the difference in compression ratio.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,948 Posts
I agree the CVT has more internal drag due to keeping tension on the steel belt

Joe,

You, as nearly the sole CVT voice of IC had better do your homework. I've seen that you favor the CVT and staunchly defend its advantages and benefits.

But, the CVT has a _compression_ link "belt".

<sarcasm on> Everyone knows its easier to push something than pull. :p <sarcasm off>
.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,632 Posts
Joe,

You, as nearly the sole CVT voice of IC had better do your homework. I've seen that you favor the CVT and staunchly defend its advantages and benefits.

But, the CVT has a _compression_ link "belt"..
My homework is from:
InsightCentral.net - Encyclopedia - Honda Insight CVT

Here is a portion of that page:

(6) Newly Designed Metal Belt
The power transfer belt was newly developed by the Dutch company Van Doorne's Transmissie. With careful testing, we were able to take the best of both the belt and the engine to make a superb engine with high output and a wide selection of gear ratios. Additionally, the belt proved to be extremely silent, due to its many hundreds of elements and the use of highly durable, yet thin metals.



Ok.....They called it a metal belt....I called it a steel belt.....I don't know if the high strength metal used in contruction is steel or some other metal but I figure if the Insight encyclopedia describes it as a metal belt.....I figure I'm not that far off by calling it a steel belt as a quick description....I did not intend to convey in my quick description that it was just a single steel band if that is what people were thinking I meant.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top