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Discussion Starter #1
I drive multiple cars depending on my mood. Ford engines are ranked in the top 5 for reliability, and number one among US companies. The Fiesta 1.0 gave me 70mpg on the interstate, and I would buy that car (or Focus) if the Insight did not exist.


The Ford 1.0 Ecoboost Turbo 3 cyl has a wet rubber/ plastic timing chain arrangement, which scares me. I wonder at what age they are looking at reliability, because the 2 year reliability is a completely different thing entirely to reliability at 5 and 10 years... and so on. Plus, reliability need to control for cost of repairs as well - and whether a failure is a minor fix, or a total loss/ replacement.

The stats that show how much more dependable Japanese technology is, is hidden in statistics that don't really tell the full story.

Though in principle, Ford do make good stuff; they have had a major issue with automatic transmission recently, especially diesel automatics - so, is this whole vehicle, drivetrain, or just engine - and by what time-frame?

If you were to look at 10 year reliability of whole vehicle, then Ford would be leagues behind their Japanese peers, along with all the Euro manufacturers too.

Though, I agree that Ford could be the best Non-Japanese producer in terms of reliability.
 

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If you were to look at 10 year reliability of whole vehicle, then Ford would be leagues behind their Japanese peers, along with all the Euro manufacturers too.
Opinion, or are you using actual reliability data? My GMs have been trouble-free relative to my 9 year old Civic Hybrids.

Steve
 

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Plenty of examples but here's one: www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer . Bear in mind that's in the UK so Chevrolet is basically Daewoo and Ford is mostly small cars. Stuff like the Ranger is pretty rare over here and probably uses a 4 cylinder turbodiesel rather than a V6 or V8.

Those stats are whole car 3rd party warranty claims. If we go just on engine related claims Honda are twice as reliable as even the no.2 manufacturer.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Opinion, or are you using actual reliability data? My GMs have been trouble-free relative to my 9 year old Civic Hybrids.

Steve
What is more reliable, a car that fails often with a very low cost of repair, or one that fails very infrequently, with a very high cost? - these are two separate metrics.

Have a look (and this is UK data from a commercial company, but this is their data of claims paid out, so I feel it is fairly credible to a point).

You have to look at what fails, when (average age), and how much it costs to fix. Then index these separately, weight them appropriately, and get a generalist index - which will be weighted in some biased way normally).

Manufacturer Ratings - Car Reliability Index | Reliability Index | How reliable is your car?

Top 100 UK Cars | Reliability Index | How reliable is your car?

They would say a Jazz/ Fit is more reliable than a Fiesta (all variants)
 

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Good points everyone. I too have wonder the same and mpg from a car. It seems for the most part with the advancements you can get a fuel efficient car pretty cheap that has good performance and does not require much maintenance.

The hybrid and diesel on that note looks less favorable to own. My family has had diesels and although they do not need spark plugs, they need glow plugs. Instead of a tune up they need the injector pump rebuilt. Less maintenance, but when it was needed it was more expensive.

The insight seems to be similar. It seems all of the Hondas are cursed as they use the same IMA system and on top of that the gen 2 requires the cvt to be serviced almost every oil change. Thats another 30-55 bucks on top of the oil change premium. :-?
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Good points everyone. I too have wonder the same and mpg from a car. It seems for the most part with the advancements you can get a fuel efficient car pretty cheap that has good performance and does not require much maintenance.

The hybrid and diesel on that note looks less favorable to own. My family has had diesels and although they do not need spark plugs, they need glow plugs. Instead of a tune up they need the injector pump rebuilt. Less maintenance, but when it was needed it was more expensive.

The insight seems to be similar. It seems all of the Hondas are cursed as they use the same IMA system and on top of that the gen 2 requires the cvt to be serviced almost every oil change. Thats another 30-55 bucks on top of the oil change premium. :-?
Cobb - the modern common-rail turbo diesel is a very long way away from old diesels of yesteryear. Not sure about injector pumps rebuilt, but the variability in trouble-free ownership is a lot wider than gasoline/ petrol motors.

From my own experience, I had virtually no issues in over 100K miles with the diesel Yaris (currently smashed up on my drive, awaiting an insurance payout after someone hit it while parked). It has needed glow plugs at 110K miles, and it likes new engine oil every 5K - and a fuel filter every 20K. The motor oil comes out completely black even after 500 miles, which is normal - but the motor is otherwise fine (though it belches out soot like crazy under load - also normal). Don't forget also that the glow plugs are for starting only, once the motor is running, they are off, and the motor burns diesel under heat and compression alone. Each glow plug is essentially a heating coil.

The fuel delivery is via a high pressure fuel pump to a series of piezo injectors - this is a very costly thing to repair if it fails, but the Toyota has been perfect.

The TDIs over the last 5-7 years have had DPFs (diesel particulate filters). These are where most of the reliability problems now lie. This is a regenerative filter that catches soot and unburned particulates at sub optimal combustion periods, and then burns them off at the right time. It has an injector in the DPF that squirts diesel in to the exhaust located filter, and it all gets burned off - normally as a big puff of soot on the highway at certain times. The smokey exhausts are now a thing of the past in cars fitted with a DPF

The problem comes when the thing gets clogged in short urban journeys, and doesnt have the opportunity to regenerate. When this happens, the diesel squirted in can make it's way to the engine oil, filling up the sump too much, which then leads to major problems.

These issues have been made worse by the proportion of biodiesel in the mix, to the point where they are probably no longer worth buying unless you do a lot of highway mileage.

They are also hugely dirtier than petrol engines.

So, in summary, petrol continues to be cleaner, simpler and cheaper to fix usually. Diesel is a fantastic fuel when executed well, used in the right conditions - though I believe diesel is rapidly coming to the end of it's run in the main, due to regulatory shift, and the inability of optimisation by manufacturers over time in the main.

The best TDIs were (in my opinion) made between about 2000 and 2007 before certain regulations and DPFs came in.

We know that TDIs were most widely promoted in the Euro area, and it is likely that over the next 10 years, the numbers on the roads will rapidly diminish; especially since this ridiculous VW fiasco, where clearly all the manufacturers are doing the same thing. VW were (and no favouratism at all here) instrumental in perfecting the turbo diesel, especially the 4 cylinder variant, which is the most common.

Diesels provide a very comfortable highway drive, revving low at speed, and having a large amount of torque for good acceleration at lower RPM without the need for changing gear. The standard sedan such a Passat, will cope very well with a 4 cylinder 2.0 TDI, less even these days, perhaps even 1.6.
 

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phb10186;
You might add that diesels require a VERY HIGH compression to be operational.

Not many production gas engines are built with that high of compression.

Willie
 

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phb10186, those sound great. We had the ones with direct bosch rotary injector pump from the 80s.

For the most part VWs and Mercedes had quality issues for a while in the US.

I use to work for a commercial truck equipment company and at one point people only wanted gas powered trucks due to issues with the diesel engines available. Even CAT and Cummins had problems at one time. :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
phb10186;
You might add that diesels require a VERY HIGH compression to be operational.

Not many production gas engines are built with that high of compression.

Willie
Cant remember the exact compression of the Yaris Diesel - the figure 18 or 22: 1 rings a bell, so yes very high, hence why they have that characteristic diesel clatter mostly when cold.

I'll also add that while the gasoline yaris runs out of puff and on the highway, the diesel does not, and it is actually a very good cruiser due to low rpm cruise (I think about 2K at 70mph), and still has good overtaking at that speed (with smog show), and there is little performance change with the car fully occupied either.

I'll also add that the motor runs fine with a 50:50 mix of diesel and vegetable oil (I like to call that biodiesel), so renewable energy... tick.

I'm not actually a huge advocate of diesel, as they arent clean - but I am utilitarian, and the yaris diesel was a hugely practival car for what it was... the original ones anyway, before the DPFs came along. The car does 64mpg (imperial gallons) and that was way back in 2002 at launch. I think it was in the top 3 best MPG cars available when I bought it, behind the Insight 1 and the Diesel Smart I think - pretty sure it beat the Prius 1. I have had 500 miles from a tank before, and the tank isnt big.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
phb10186, those sound great. We had the ones with direct bosch rotary injector pump from the 80s.

For the most part VWs and Mercedes had quality issues for a while in the US.

I use to work for a commercial truck equipment company and at one point people only wanted gas powered trucks due to issues with the diesel engines available. Even CAT and Cummins had problems at one time. :confused:
Wouldn't buy a Mercedes or VW any more; too many bad stories. I'll stick to Jap now, possibly a Ford at a pinch, but that would be the only non-Jap I would even think about.
 

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I wonder at what age they are looking at reliability, because the 2 year reliability is a completely different thing entirely to reliability at 5 and 10 years...
Nothing so complex. Warranty Direct tracks how many times a car's engine fails (and needs a warranty fix). Honda has the least number of failures, Toyota second least, and so on.

Timing belts fail because they dry-out, but if they are immersed in oil then that will never happen.... just like the rubber gaskets/seals never fail because oil keeps them moisturized. I expect a Ford timing belt to live longer than Honda's timing chain.

BTW speaking of failures: Dodge Challengers & Chargers are having massive timing chain failures, as young as 30,000 miles
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The Ford's bathed timing belt has a "lifetime Warranty".

Willie
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Nothing so complex. Warranty Direct tracks how many times a car's engine fails (and needs a warranty fix). Honda has the least number of failures, Toyota second least, and so on.

Timing belts fail because they dry-out, but if they are immersed in oil then that will never happen.... just like the rubber gaskets/seals never fail because oil keeps them moisturized. I expect a Ford timing belt to live longer than Honda's timing chain.

BTW speaking of failures: Dodge Challengers & Chargers are having massive timing chain failures, as young as 30,000 miles
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Time will tell I suppose. I couldn't say whether a Ford timing belt would last longer than a Honda chain, I would have thought hugely unlikely. Honda make the best gasoline engines in the world, statistically and actually. How that goes in the future is anyone's guess.

The reason manufacturers went to chains from belts was service costs (i.e. keeping it lower). Engines with timing chains are noisier than belt driven ones. You do have to replace a dry belt every so often, but that was never a huge issue as far as I was concerned. Good thing with chains is they don't require any servicing per se, though any trouble and you wish you'd had a belt. Belts also occasionally snapped leading to engine failure under warranty, this is less likely with a chain again. So it may be akin to the dual mass flywheel revolution, which essentially protects the gearbox from people who can;t change gear sympathetically... though very expensive if they go.

Fords wet timing belt is probably a very good design, as it has the advantages of a belt, and not the disadvantages of a chain - though it is within the engine like a chain, not external like a belt.

To be quite honest, there are a number of very good propositions to fuel efficiency, and this is a good one - the engine has won several awards and so on, so yes; perfectly plausible it would remain trouble free and reliable. I can;t see how it hauls a C-max along, but it's essentially sold as a 1.6 litre alternative - so ill buy that.
 
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