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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Here's a link to that post/s where Peter P. tests/rebuilt the Y-capacitor, which he calls the "snubber" unit: High Voltage LTO Setup.. 96 Cells. Can it be done?

edit: There's actually an explanation of what they're for some posts down from the linked post, I've copied the whole thing and pasted it below, it's mudder's explanation:
Holy smokes. Looks like this person was experiencing more or less the same issue I am, but rebuilding the snubber didn't cure it. At this point we're venturing deep into the realm of circuitry and electronics knowledge that I simply don't possess and wouldn't even know where to start on. I'm not afraid to admit that I'm in way over my head here.

The one thing I wish I could do is connect a known working junction box to the current battery array and see if the same short is taking place, but I can't find one of those for sale individually anywhere and I don't think I'm likely to. If I go with a BeeMax, at the very least I know it's a brand new assembly that should theoretically last many years (though the junction box probably isn't new, which is a little concerning knowing what I know). I think that's the route I'm going to go unless I can find a known working junction box somewhere. Building high voltage capacitors is a little far out of my pay grade.

It is really cool to see a community so dedicated to these cars that they've figured out how to DIY all this stuff though. I love mine and I'm committed to keeping it on the road for a long time, so I guess I'd better just spend the money now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Actually, scratch that for now. Just found a junction box on ebay "tested and confirmed to work", so that's on the way now. This will be infinitely useful - no way both boxes are going to have the same failure causing a high voltage short. That's my logic, anyway. Hopefully somebody with this same problem somewhere down the road will at least be able to google and find this thread, and see the things I've already done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Additionally, looks like it's apparently common knowledge here that these things can have leaks and corrosion that can't be seen under the shrink wrap, and this can cause high voltage shorts. There's a testing method here that looks like something I can do. I'm going to try this as well. I did replace sticks in the array with "used but working" sticks and I'm starting to wonder if maybe one of them or one of my previous sticks could be leaking through to the PTC strip without me knowing. I'll pull the pack again and give both of these a whirl, will report back.
 

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If you're not able to get it working on your own:

I'm located in Chattanooga. I 100% guarantee I can tell you what part is broken in less than an hour. I also have replacement parts for every IMA component, except for the actual motor (in the engine).

@Natalya is located in Atlanta, which is a bit closer.

We're also available on the board. If you can upload a youtube video showing what troubleshooting steps you've performed thus far - along with the failures you're seeing - then I can troubleshoot remotely.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
If you're not able to get it working on your own:

I'm located in Chattanooga. I 100% guarantee I can tell you what part is broken in less than an hour. I also have replacement parts for every IMA component, except for the actual motor (in the engine).

@Natalya is located in Atlanta, which is a bit closer.

We're also available on the board. If you can upload a youtube video showing what troubleshooting steps you've performed thus far - along with the failures you're seeing - then I can troubleshoot remotely.
Thank you so much for the offer, and I may just take you up on it, 5 hour drive and all. A Youtube video is definitely easier though. I'll make one tonight and post it here. I'm going to ask you in advance to please forgive my complete ignorance of literally everything and the incorrect names I will undoubtedly use to describe parts.
 

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I'm going to ask you in advance to please forgive my complete ignorance of literally everything and the incorrect names I will undoubtedly use to describe parts.
As long as you can point and say "when I do this, that happens" I can probably figure it out.
 

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Something I notice on page 1, regarding grounds, the IMA high voltage circuit has its own ground that is separate from the chassis//engine grounds all of the other 12V systems in the car use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
As long as you can point and say "when I do this, that happens" I can probably figure it out.
Here's my long awaited directorial debut. I'm sure I missed something you may have wanted to see, let me know and I'll fill in the gaps. Likewise, if you want me to try anything and film myself doing it, that will be no problem. Please try to resist the urge to make fun of my crummy Chinese off-brand tools.

 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Oh yeah, I feel it's important to mention again that the high voltage short was not a problem until after I pulled the battery and reconditioned/replaced the cells. The OBD was throwing the 1449 only, and I didn't even know about blink codes at the time, just that this meant my battery was malfunctioning and probably needed refurbishing. I hadn't done nearly enough research at that time, I guess. The car would work as intended for about a day upon an IPU reset before the IMA light would come on and the IMA itself would stop functioning, no assist, no HVAC, just an underpowered gas car.

It may also be worth noting that I replaced the transmission range switch after getting that error code as well, but that was before any of the IMA malfunctioning happened. That error code has not returned.
 

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Good video. It doesn't hurt to have a spare junction board around, but I wouldn't drop $100 on parts until you know what the problem is. Additionally, forum members will know the best ways to get parts, and at a good price.

It seems like the junction board may(?) be okay. As you said in the video, the next step is testing with a volt meter. Reassemble the battery with the breaker on, and hook the negative lead to the negative battery terminal. Then you want to test the following points for voltage, and I've put the expected voltage beside it.
  • PTC strip, both ends, 0V
  • Positive terminal on top of junction board, 0V (this is because there's a contactor (relay) that doesn't enable the battery until the car ignition is on)
  • Either breaker terminal (with it flipped on), 86-100V
  • Positive battery terminal (bottom left of junction board), 144-168V
  • Ground lug coming off of capacitors, 0V
  • Each thermistor wire, 0V
As far as codes are concerned, the 59 blink code refers to P1444, High voltage short circuit, there is no 59 subcode for P1449. Perhaps the P1444 was successfully cleared by your scan tool. The service manual, posted in a sticky thread on the troubleshooting subforum, has instructions on troubleshooting this code.

Unrelated to the big shorting issues, your stick testing cycle is probably not aggressive enough to have found all of the issues in your pack. The biggest factor in stick testing is probably discharge current. It looks like you tested at 5A. My first tests were at 10A and that wasn't enough. I'd recommend 25-30A.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Good video. It doesn't hurt to have a spare junction board around, but I wouldn't drop $100 on parts until you know what the problem is. Additionally, forum members will know the best ways to get parts, and at a good price.

It seems like the junction board may(?) be okay. As you said in the video, the next step is testing with a volt meter. Reassemble the battery with the breaker on, and hook the negative lead to the negative battery terminal. Then you want to test the following points for voltage, and I've put the expected voltage beside it.
  • PTC strip, both ends, 0V
  • Positive terminal on top of junction board, 0V (this is because there's a contactor (relay) that doesn't enable the battery until the car ignition is on)
  • Either breaker terminal (with it flipped on), 86-100V
  • Positive battery terminal (bottom left of junction board), 144-168V
  • Ground lug coming off of capacitors, 0V
  • Each thermistor wire, 0V
As far as codes are concerned, the 59 blink code refers to P1444, High voltage short circuit, there is no 59 subcode for P1449. Perhaps the P1444 was successfully cleared by your scan tool. The service manual, posted in a sticky thread on the troubleshooting subforum, has instructions on troubleshooting this code.

Unrelated to the big shorting issues, your stick testing cycle is probably not aggressive enough to have found all of the issues in your pack. The biggest factor in stick testing is probably discharge current. It looks like you tested at 5A. My first tests were at 10A and that wasn't enough. I'd recommend 25-30A.
Understood. Seems like a fairly straightforward process. I'll test the voltage and report back.

I don't get why the blink code is 59 personally, I was assuming it was referring to the 1542. I don't believe I'm getting a 1444. I could be wrong, in fact, I probably am as I'm wrong about most things. Full disclosure, cars are completely foreign to me. I only have minor experience with electrical systems like this, but I've been learning a lot thanks in large part to the Insight Central community. If this car had an engine knock or an AC compressor problem or something, I would not even make any kind of attempt to diagnose and fix it.

The charger bills itself as supporting a maximum discharge at 10A. ~5.5A was about all it seemed to want to do; I have no doubt this was a feature specified for lithium batteries only or something else that I don't understand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Good video. It doesn't hurt to have a spare junction board around, but I wouldn't drop $100 on parts until you know what the problem is. Additionally, forum members will know the best ways to get parts, and at a good price.

It seems like the junction board may(?) be okay. As you said in the video, the next step is testing with a volt meter. Reassemble the battery with the breaker on, and hook the negative lead to the negative battery terminal. Then you want to test the following points for voltage, and I've put the expected voltage beside it.
  • PTC strip, both ends, 0V
  • Positive terminal on top of junction board, 0V (this is because there's a contactor (relay) that doesn't enable the battery until the car ignition is on)
  • Either breaker terminal (with it flipped on), 86-100V
  • Positive battery terminal (bottom left of junction board), 144-168V
  • Ground lug coming off of capacitors, 0V
  • Each thermistor wire, 0V
As far as codes are concerned, the 59 blink code refers to P1444, High voltage short circuit, there is no 59 subcode for P1449. Perhaps the P1444 was successfully cleared by your scan tool. The service manual, posted in a sticky thread on the troubleshooting subforum, has instructions on troubleshooting this code.

Unrelated to the big shorting issues, your stick testing cycle is probably not aggressive enough to have found all of the issues in your pack. The biggest factor in stick testing is probably discharge current. It looks like you tested at 5A. My first tests were at 10A and that wasn't enough. I'd recommend 25-30A.
Quick question, when you say to put the breaker back on, are you referring to the entire junction board assembly? I'm unfortunately at a loss regarding the term breaker terminal as well, there are two labeled in blue on the diagram, so I'm assuming that's what you're referring to. And when you say PTC strip, are your referring to the PTC strips on the individual batteries, or something different? Please bear with me, I'm still learning what these things are and where they're located.
 

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hey no worries, happy to clarify. Yes I meant put the junction board back on and attached to the cells, and then turn the breaker (the switch) to the on position (safety first of course)
The breaker terminal are both of the metal contacts on the switch. They'll read the same voltage if the switch is on, so you only need to read one of them.
Yes the PTC strips are all on the sticks, but they're all wired in series in a strand. There are 2 cables with red plastic around them that attach to the very ends of the full strand of PTCs. You want to measure the voltage from each end to ground, so it's 2 readings, and we want to make sure it's isolated from the sticks, which would be 0V.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
hey no worries, happy to clarify. Yes I meant put the junction board back on and attached to the cells, and then turn the breaker (the switch) to the on position (safety first of course)
The breaker terminal are both of the metal contacts on the switch. They'll read the same voltage if the switch is on, so you only need to read one of them.
Yes the PTC strips are all on the sticks, but they're all wired in series in a strand. There are 2 cables with red plastic around them that attach to the very ends of the full strand of PTCs. You want to measure the voltage from each end to ground, so it's 2 readings, and we want to make sure it's isolated from the sticks, which would be 0V.
All that makes sense. Will measure the readings when I get home from work and report back. Thanks for the clarification.
 

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P1542: Climate control unit signal circuit high voltage (a wire is disconnected). Check for poor connection at heater control panel and the ECM. See page 266 in the pgm_fi_system manual. Click the 'download' button on that page.

Question: At 7:36 in your video, the eyelet (wrapped in orange tape) is disconnected. Was that also the case earlier in your video (while you were driving? If so, then the HVDC system has no chassis ground reference, which can cause all kinds of problems. You might have addressed this at 7:45... I'm just making sure.

8:22 junction board wires all appear connected correctly, except that the capacitor wires aren't connected.

8:47 you're correct that none of the three capacitor wires should have continuity (when disconnected from the junction board).

Question: At 9:45, what is the resistance between the PTC screw heads (phillips) and the battery terminals (10 mm bolt)? Should be 'open' (i.e. infinite). Measure from various phillips to various bolts.

Suggestion: 10:00 measure the voltage across the four aluminum spacers. Two combinations should give voltage (e.g. 80 volts and 50 volts)... the other combinations will give floating voltage (around zero). What are the two highest voltages that you measure?

P1449(59):
As mentioned above, not a valid code. The blinking IMA code (59) is more accurate (but harder to read) than the P-code (P1449). It's possible the MCM (which generates both codes) is having multiple codes... and just reporting them at different times. Regardless, you can troubleshoot either code by following this guide.

The first test Honda recommends (on page 114 in the above link) is to disconnect the MCM'E' connector (which has two wire: RED/RED & WHT/WHT). Then measure the resistance between chassis ground and both terminals. You should measure above 300 kOhm. If so, then swap in another MCM and test for P-code again. If the resistance is less than 300 kOhm, then the issue is somewhere else in the IMA. The first thing I'd do is disconnect the two high current cables (the ones that you show sparking in the video), then repeat the test. If the resistance goes above 300 kOhm with those leads disconnected, then the issue is inside the PDU (the left box in the IMA bay). Otherwise, the issue is inside the battery module (and is probably a temperature sensor shorting out to the HVDC bus).

...

FYI: The spark you're seeing in the IMA bay is you discharging the very large capacitors inside the PDU (the thing on the left). They can take quite a while to discharge. I wouldn't worry about the spark... that's expected behavior until the capacitors discharge.

Based on your video, my best guess right now is either the actual IGBT module is broken (inside the PDU, which is the thing on the left in the IMA bay), or a temp sensor is shorting out to the HVDC bus.
 

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@mudder, if one of the four PTC wires were crushed between a cell and the bus plate, such that the insulation was compromised and electrical contact was made between that cell terminal and the PTC wire, is there a return path anywhere else (other than the capacitive one through the Y caps) that could lead to a current-related failure event? (I would assume not) Would the MCM's battery-not-isolated-from-chassis circuit detect this as a fault? How would it report it? How might one check for this without taking the pack out of the car?

(this is really for my own reference, apologies if I hijacked the thread.)
 

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If you're not able to get it working on your own:

I'm located in Chattanooga. I 100% guarantee I can tell you what part is broken in less than an hour. I also have replacement parts for every IMA component, except for the actual motor (in the engine).

@Natalya is located in Atlanta, which is a bit closer.

We're also available on the board. If you can upload a youtube video showing what troubleshooting steps you've performed thus far - along with the failures you're seeing - then I can troubleshoot remotely.
I have a spare Manual transmission IMA motor and a spare Auto BCM and the other on the battery pack CM, I forget what it is called. I also have a silver rear hatch spare and two cars, on manual and one auto, 2000 and 2001 in order to liquidate...
 
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