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I've ALWAYS preferred MT over Automatic. Will there ever be a MT Hybrid, do you think? My friends think there will never be another hybrid with MT.
 

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I hope so because I have never liked automatics. But people seem to be becoming more and more lazy and prefer automatics.
 

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I think the MT is far superior to CVT. More control, better gas milage, more sexy, better pickup, and so on and so on.
I am just glad I bought my MT and I hope to be driving it for a long, long time. To me it makes sense for the auto industry to design more MT hybrids because there is a definite target group that prefers MT over auto.
 

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Although designs continue to improve significantly (ie: 6 speed, CVT) automatic transmissions are typically heavier than their manual counterparts, and are inherently less efficient.
I hope I'll never have to own a car with one again.

Unfortunately, this means that it's not likely I'll be able to get a newer minivan or hybrid in the USA in the future.

I don't think that the automaker designers and marketers are listening to Insight owners.

On a more positive note, when and if automotive technology evolves to fuel cell / traction motor configurations, transmissions shouldn't be necessary. I guess I'll just have to wait, or perhaps build one myself.
Thankfully, Insights don't rust. ;)
 

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Automatics are boring, like playing the piano with one finger. What you gain in simplicity you loose in control, however, automatics can be a health and sanity saver if you drive in traffic all the time. (There are different personalities of automatic as well.)

Honda looks at Toyota and notes that the Prius is selling like popcorn at a movie, then looks at the fact that 90 percent of Americans drive automatics and draws an easy conclusion. They are also pressured to add more refined energy saving features in their designs but still want the car to look and feel like an ordinary vehicle. (Time for more computer control.)

The Insight is an anomaly. It also has enormous potential for aftermarket improvement. That is one reason I believe it will be sough after in the coming years. Really it is a pity if Honda stops making it, but "what can can a poor boy do?"
 

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Manufactures also know an automatic needs more mainenance than a manual. This results in more money in the auto industry pocket.
 

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Several reasons MT's are going away.

The MT is going the way of the dinosaur for several reasons.

* A sequential manual gearbox like BMW and Audi make shift faster and more efficiently than the best manual / clutch combination.

Other than sheer driving pleasure, there are many benefits to using SMG:

The life of the clutch, gearbox and drive line components are extended due to the precise control of clutch and gear actuation.
SMG uses less horsepower, provides better fuel efficiency, is lighter, less complex and cheaper to manufacture.
Since there is no clutch pedal, SMG reduces driver fatique.


* The MT Insight with lean burn feature contributes significantly more pollutants to the air than a CVT equipped model w/o lean burn. Even when you factor in the additional amount of fuel burned to make up the mpg difference, the CVT comes out ahead.

Clean Car Campaign-SULEV Standard
Hydrocarbons (HC) 0.01 percent
Carbon Monoxide (CO) 1.0 (grams/mile)
Nitrous Oxides (NOx) 0.02 (grams/mile)
Particulate Matter (PM) 0.01 (grams/mile)


* In order to meet SULEV and PZEV requirements, more AT's will be introduced.

* A properly coded 5 or 6 speed AT with Tiptronic is almost as much fun as banging through the gears with a clutch and a whole lot easier when stuck in traffic.

* Manufacturers sell what meets the needs of the majority in order to ensure sales goals are met. If most buyers want cupholders and ATs, then they are going to get cupholders and ATs. It's simple economics.
 

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Re: Several reasons MT's are going away.

spacebug said:
* A properly coded 5 or 6 speed AT with Tiptronic is almost as much fun as banging through the gears with a clutch and a whole lot easier when stuck in traffic.
Excuse me, but this is total BS. Name *ONE* AT "tiptronic" transmission that doesn't have mind-blowingly infurating lag. I've driven several, and they ALL suck. BADLY.

Also, computer-controlled manual transmissions (al-la Ferrari's F1 gearbox) tend to wear components out FASTER than a regular MT (Clutches need to be replaced in less than 15k miles). Just because something is computer-controlled doesn't mean it's better. Humans can adapt to their environment in real-time. Developing computer algorithms to emulate this is very, *VERY* hard.
 
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Re: Several reasons MT's are going away.

spacebug said:
The life of the clutch, gearbox and drive line components are extended due to the precise control of clutch and gear actuation.
I've owned 8 MT cars and 1 pickup and *never* had to replace a clutch or needed gearbox work. I put >170,000 mi on each of 2 Hondas on the original clutches. How much better could it get?

OTOH my father bought a 1958 Mercedes 220S (new in 1958) with the Hydrak system: a microswitch on the shift lever activated the clutch so you just moved the lever. A torque converter took up the slack. You could count on the thing needing a new clutch/torque converter every 30,000 miles. I think he put in five by the time he sold it. In all other respects a wonderful car.

So I'm skeptical.
 

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My major complaint about automatics or I suppose a sequential manual gearbox is that I tend to put my foot through the floorboards trying to find the clutch ;)
 

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Re: Several reasons MT's are going away.

Infidel said:
Excuse me, but this is total BS. Name *ONE* AT "tiptronic" transmission that doesn't have mind-blowingly infurating lag. I've driven several, and they ALL suck. BADLY.
You shouldn't be so harsh. I also much prefer manual transmissions to automatics but some of the latest semi-auto transmissions such as the Volkswagen DSG system and the same system in Audi's called S-Tronic are pretty damn good. In the Golf GTI and new Audi TT, for example, the 0-60 times are quicker than in the conventional manual (same engine) yet emissions and economy are also improved. I understand the DSG / S-Tronic system uses a double clutch system so wear should be less.

For example, see last paragraph here:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests ... 702&page=6
 

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Excuse me, but this is total BS. Name *ONE* AT "tiptronic" transmission that doesn't have mind-blowingly infurating lag. I've driven several, and they ALL suck. BADLY.
Come drive my Audi A8 with the tiptronic recoded to ROW (rest of world) S8 settings. It shifts so smooth and quickly that it'll throw you back into the seat.

As to clutch replacement at 15k miles, the testing just doesn't support that argument. BMW's tests have shown less wear in all aspects than the similarly equipped car with MT.

I'm fine with you having a preference for the MT. But to call BS based on preferential bias is a bit over the top. Hope your day gets better. :)
 

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I think the key here is that electronics, servos, and computers are evolving at an amazing rate. What was a difficult task for automotive computers of a few years ago should not be considered an example of what could be done today or tomorrow. A properly designed"automatic" shifting manual transmission that can do as well or better than a human or a CVT is definately in the cards.
I have considered designing one for my Insight, but like to do the shifting my self, so I would probably not use it.
;)
 

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wow

damn good point mike
 

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I can see it both ways. As Mike pointed out, automatics have evolved a lot recently. Some of them are basically computer controlled manual boxes...clutch and all. Even with these advances, I'll be sticking with a true manual transmission as long as I can. There's nothing like a perfect shift (or double clutch downshift) that you know was all your doing... no computers to help.

As hybrids get so sophisticated, an automatic transmission is needed to keep everything in check. I don't see how a Prius would work with a manual :? . The Insight was designed for maximum fuel economy on a gas engine. The assist is just that, assist. It wasn't designed to run on battery alone so a manual transmission was the best way to go. All Honda needed was a clutch switch to disable assist/regen when it was pushed in.
 

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The Insight will likely be the last MT hybrid for a while. When Hybrids are the norm we will see manuals again. The as yet un-named new hybrid from Honda may be available in a manual just to keep the cost as low as possible, but it certainly won't be a sports car. ;)
 

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cattygurl said:
I've ALWAYS preferred MT over Automatic. Will there ever be a MT Hybrid, do you think?
Yes.

In Europe where MT is more popular. ;-)
 

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There's also the issue of control. With CVTs the industry can control fuel consumption. A manual can get better mileage, however, it can also get far worse mileage if driven poorly. Compared to the hypothetical leadfoot driver in the MT, the CVT will provide better mileage, even if its driver is a leadfoot.

That being said, I prefer MT, and both my other cars are manual. The main reason my wife wanted the CVT Insight is because it has less emissions than the MT. (SULEV vs. ULEV) The second reason was because she can't really drive manual.
 
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