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Discussion Starter #1

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Interesting, Firsthonda. If you see a story about whether she won or lost, post it here. I'll keep the URL in mind, too, in case she updates the result there.
 

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She must drive like an idiot. My 04 Civic hybrid has a badly degraded battery (I get about 10 seconds full assist and about 20 seconds of 4-5 bars, then lots of recaling) and I have yet to have a tank less than 50 mpg.

Gas brake honk, gas brake honk, honk honk punch, gas gas gas.

Sam
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Wow, did you read some of the messages of support at her site here?

Dont Settle With Honda

It really makes one think about the wisdom of buying a Honda hybrid.
Don't listen to her. She's a dingbat and a lawyer.

Go on fuelly or look on here and see what folks are getting with their Honda's.

The EPA numbers for my car(2010) is 40/43/41. Depending on how much highway driving I do, O get anywhere between 42-48 MPG per tank. On the higways, I typicaly get in the upper 40's to the low 50's and just drive like normal. If I hipermiled i'd do even better.
 

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Don't listen to her. She's a dingbat and a lawyer.

Go on fuelly or look on here and see what folks are getting with their Honda's.

The EPA numbers for my car(2010) is 40/43/41. Depending on how much highway driving I do, O get anywhere between 42-48 MPG per tank. On the higways, I typicaly get in the upper 40's to the low 50's and just drive like normal. If I hipermiled i'd do even better.
Fair enough, but I was referring to the people who have written in to support her. They've all had bad experiences with their Civic Hybrids, too. Are they all idiots, or was Honda doing something wrong?
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Fair enough, but I was referring to the people who have written in to support her. They've all had bad experiences with their Civic Hybrids, too. Are they all idiots, or was Honda doing something wrong?
I cant say 100% for sure because I don't have a Civic Hybrid. However it has the exact same IMA, with a larger Hybrid Battery and the same 1.3 motor.(pre 2011 models) I think the new model has a 1.5L and gets better fuel economy.


As far as all of them being idots, I'm sure some of them are idiots, others uninformed and motivated by $.
 

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30 mpg? She must use the same circuit and driving style as the CR did. I drove an 08 or so hch and thought it felt really nice. The assist was lacking, but it seem to regen plenty. I averaged 42mpg on my little test drive.

I should do something like this against allstate or progressive. My new job is an auditor for insurance under writers. The system was down, so I did some browsing on diminished liability and non fault accidents, etc. Seems VA allows diminish value and with a non fault settlement I was suppose to sign something.
 

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I can see Honda coming at her on driving style, maintenance record, and if she took advantage of lemon laws. I mean, if it's THAT BAD in the first year, the Texas lemon law says the dealer has to take it back.
 

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This story was reported on NPR's "All Things Considered" today, so it's getting national attention.

While I agree that many hybrid owners don't know how to or won't drive to get good fuel efficiency, Honda is to blame for a poorly-designed hybrid system. Most buyers buy hybrids to save money. But the purchase price of hybrids is considerably higher than equivalent non-hybrids, so owners need to recoup this additional cost in the better fuel efficiency available from hybrids before they begin to save money. Then Honda applies a firmware update to try to compensate for a poorly-designed hybrid system, and this update further reduces their fuel efficiency. Expensive battery packs continue to fail at an unacceptable rate. Honda has been good replacing battery packs under warranty, but after the warranty expires, owners are stuck with expensive replacement costs.

So many Honda hybrid owners who expected to save money driving their hybrids never do and feel cheated. With Honda doing little to improve this situation (really, what could Honda do to fix existing flawed IMA systems?), the legal system is the only recourse other than selling one's Honda hybrid and never buying a Honda again. But many people today really cannot afford to buy a new car when they had planned on keeping their "reliable" Honda for many years. So for some, it's a tough situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
How can you say the Honda's IMA is a poorly designed system? The mass majority of folks are getting at or above the epa numbers.
 

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How can you say the Honda's IMA is a poorly designed system? The mass majority of folks are getting at or above the epa numbers.
How do you know the experience of the mass majority of folks? There are apparently quite a few people who are so dissatisfied that they've been willing to join a class action suit which requires them to state in writing that they're dissatisfied with the fuel efficiency of their Civic Hybrid. As I stated, we all know that the driver is a major factor in fuel efficiency, but Honda shares some of the blame as well.

I claim that Honda's IMA system is poorly-designed because of its high rate of battery pack failure which, after the warranty expires, will cost owners so much to fix that savings from better fuel efficiency would be substantially wiped out. Honda has tinkered with the IMA battery management system resulting in poorer fuel efficiency. But that's about all the Honda can do because their basic battery management system is flawed. We shouldn't have to use a custom, expensive, third-party IMA battery pack charger/balancer to fix the battery pack cell imbalance problem that the IMA system is unable to fix. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that Toyota's hybrid system can maintain cell balance in its battery pack resulting in much longer battery pack life and better performance throughout the battery pack's life. The fact that Honda hasn't fixed this problem more than 12 years after having introduced its IMA system is pretty appalling, especially considering the amazing engineering in the original Insight. Maybe Honda has never recovered from the shock of the Insight's poor sales and the resulting significant financial losses such that it has refused to invest in the engineering necessary to fix the IMA system or replace it with something better.
 

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Clears throat. It seems rather wasteful to roll the engine and all of its rotating assembly's when its not being used except to aid in braking. I don't see why a company that has built cars with a motorcycle mentality couldn't of included an overrun or some type of one way clutch to allow the ima motor to roll without the ice spinning for an EV mode for some of the IMA cars and a better EV mod for the i2 owners.

I had a ct and sl 90 50 cc motorcycle from the 70s that had an automatic clutch and sequential shifter. I could easily coast and the clutch allowed the transmission parts to spin independed of the ice. When the engine started to match or exceed the tranny speed it locked and the clutch gripped.

Sent from my Autoguide iPod touch app
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Clears throat. It seems rather wasteful to roll the engine and all of its rotating assembly's when its not being used except to aid in braking. I don't see why a company that has built cars with a motorcycle mentality couldn't of included an overrun or some type of one way clutch to allow the ima motor to roll without the ice spinning for an EV mode for some of the IMA cars and a better EV mod for the i2 owners.
They probably could have but the MPG gains would probably be minimal, while increasing the cost significantly.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I claim that Honda's IMA system is poorly-designed because of its high rate of battery pack failure which, after the warranty expires, will cost owners so much to fix that savings from better fuel efficiency would be substantially wiped out. The fact that Honda hasn't fixed this problem more than 12 years after having introduced its IMA system is pretty appalling, especially considering the amazing engineering in the original Insight. .
"As of June 2008 in the U.S., according to Honda, there are fewer than 200 battery failures beyond warranty coverage out of more than 100,000 hybrids sold."

Honda Insight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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This is interesting, too, from two paragraphs below that citation:

As of 2008, independent mechanics have been known to replace Insight batteries with either Prius sub-packs or Civic Hybrid subpacks.

A case could be made, then, for just buying the Prius to begin with and skipping the whole battery-pack-failure thing, couldn't it?
 

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"As of June 2008 in the U.S., according to Honda, there are fewer than 200 battery failures beyond warranty coverage out of more than 100,000 hybrids sold."
That statistic says little about the reliability of Honda's hybrid battery packs. But it does indicate that Honda replaced most failed battery packs under warranty which is great until one's warranty expires and battery pack failures continue.

That's a pretty meaningless indication of battery pack failure rates because only those 2000 - 2004 Insights that had been driven more than 150,000 miles and 2005 - 2006 Insights, and Civic and Accord Hybrids that had been driven more than 80,000 miles by June, 2008, were out of warranty. So battery failures among in-warranty Honda hybrids, almost certainly the vast majority, would not have been counted.

By June, 2008, my Insight had suffered two battery pack failures under warranty. I'm sure that in June, 2008, we could have found more than 200 failed battery packs among just members of this forum.

It would be interesting to learn how many Honda hybrid battery packs have failed by now out of the total number of Honda hybrids sold. Of course, we'll never learn that number. It would be interesting to learn how many failed battery packs Ron at Hybrid Battery Repair has repaired which would be only a fraction of the failed battery packs, most owners likely turning to Honda for battery pack replacements.

The failure rate has almost certainly improved over time because a far higher percentage of Honda hybrids are now CVT's which appear to be much easier on battery packs than manual transmission models. But Honda's battery pack reliability record is pretty dismal overall and almost certainly much worse than Toyota's.

The class action and small claims court lawsuits were filed because of fuel efficiency dissatisfaction. The vast majority of the Honda hybrids not providing satisfactory fuel efficiency are still under warranty. Imagine the dissatisfaction after the warranties expire and the cost of replacing failed battery packs mounts.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
This is interesting, too, from two paragraphs below that citation:

As of 2008, independent mechanics have been known to replace Insight batteries with either Prius sub-packs or Civic Hybrid subpacks.

A case could be made, then, for just buying the Prius to begin with and skipping the whole battery-pack-failure thing, couldn't it?
Priuses, costing considerably more, have produced disappointing fuel economy in some cases as well. In addition, Toyota has had their fair share of problems
 

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Priuses, costing considerably more, have produced disappointing fuel economy in some cases as well. In addition, Toyota has had their fair share of problems
No question, Priuses do cost more up front. But if you're going to be getting better gas mileage (in most cases) and not having to replace the battery pack on your own (~$2,000 today), doesn't that in theory make up for the cost difference and result in less hassle (having to take the vehicle to the dealership for battery-pack replacement, either under warranty or out of warranty)?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
No question, Priuses do cost more up front. But if you're going to be getting better gas mileage (in most cases) and not having to replace the battery pack on your own (~$2,000 today), doesn't that in theory make up for the cost difference and result in less hassle (having to take the vehicle to the dealership for battery-pack replacement, either under warranty or out of warranty)?
I believe, you would have to drive your basic Prius for 400,000 miles at 4 bucks a gallon in order to greak even with an Insight EX. Look up the figures online. The battery warranty is also like 10 years or 150,000 miles. Honda has a better reputation than Toyota for quality as well as low cost of ownership. The Prius has more bells and whistles to break.

Did you ever drive a Prius? It's very awkward.
 
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