Awesome post...love the pics. I also like your idea of repositioning the wiper.
Have you considered adding a 'padding' resistor inline to electrically displace the wiper on its' track? This might be quicker and easier.

 

I would think that "shortened" wiper would now have a totally different resistance and alter the "map" of EGR operation. This is unless the system can "learn" what the real position is during warm up "readiness check". Nice job on the pictures.

 

ASFAIK the wiper position is not an absolute value in the ECM, so moving the wiper on the track should be fine within reason. The EGR pot is not a high precison device and manufacturing tolerances would make an absolute position system quite flaky IMO.

You can't add a resistor to the end of the track for the same reason as the ECM learns and the position is relative to valve opening and feedback it gets from others sensors.

So even of you added a 1k resistor to the end of the pot, I expect it would still work on the worn part of the track. Moving the wiper to a virgin portion of track seems the best way.

I had not thought of cutting the rod which is a good idea if a little permanent!!
So long as the pot still retains enough travel, return spring pressue and wiper contact pressure it should work OK.

We may have now sorted the old EGR issue. Well done it will save us all $200 every few years!

 

The more I looked into it the more brilliant this repair becomes. Indeed during the "readiness check" (felt as a stumble after 1-2 min driving from a cold start) the EGR valve is commanded open and the ECU takes note of the amount of lift that results in a "stumble" and as a result the EGR feedback is calibrated during that check.

Brilliant job insight1

 

Insight1,

Thanks for all the work you did, in dissecting the EGR valve and related 'variable resistor'.

First of all, the geometry of the pot was not what I expected. The 'linear' parallel tracks were a surprise, but make sense as to the function of the pot.

Now to my question:

The presumption is that keeping WD40 or other 'lubricants' out of the pot is a good thing, right? But I can't help wondering if the presence of some type of lubricant may help elongate the life of the carbon tracking material that is deposited in a very thin layer on the printed circuit board.

As you made very clear in your pictures, the wipers only move over a small portion of the carbon track. Would having some type of liquid to act as a lubricator actually help the track to last longer? Since the wiper movement is so slow, maybe a specialty grease would help? Anything that still allows electrical contact with the carbon track, but reduces sliding friction would be a benefit.

Jim.

 

Since the wiper movement is so slow, maybe a specialty grease would help? Anything that still allows electrical contact with the carbon track, but reduces sliding friction would be a benefit.

Jim.

Dielectric grease comes to mind but I think any sort of grease would just move out of the way unless the entire cavity was filled to make sure that it was still in the area. I don't think it's the sliding friction as much as how much pressure those little fingers dig in.

To make them less 'sharp' or doing something to them so they don't push as much pressure might extend the life before those deep grooves develop but then it might not have enough pressure to provide good contact which would be another problem possibly created by the solution. It would be a trial and error solution no matter what we try.

 

Here is some "bovine scatology" on the subject.

www.hindawi.com/journals/apec/1985/064056.pdf



Several other articles on cleaning pots recommend (of all things) WD-40. From what I read the important parameter is that the lubricant is "polar".

 

It looks like one could skip total "dissy" and op instead for drilling-cleaning and shortening the "push rod" 5mm.

 

Hitech,

Based on your linked article, it does appear that several lubricants do help to preserve the carbon tracks of the studied variable resistor:

Aliten N
Wikson 30

Both lubricants did show an improvement over the dry surface.

Jim.

 

Insight1
At the bottom when you cut the wipe it has a hole. Did you fill in the hole with something such as apoxy or you left it the way it was.

 

EGR valve

I think I may have something to add to this thread... I also had this problem a year or two ago. Cleaning did not fix it. After learning the cost to replace the EGR valve, I figured what the heck and took the old one apart. I also noticed the black material stuck to the contact fingers.

Now I have worked in electronics for many years (I am an EE) and I have never seen a variable resistor slider contact that looked like this! Normally the fingers are bent so they are smooth and do not gouge into the resistive element. Think of sliding a spoon back and forth along a flat surface... it won't tend to dig in if you do it bowl side down rather than tip side down. This picture (from the original posting) shows it perfectly:

fingers

After looking at it, I am highly suspicious that the contact pieces are attached upside down (or perhaps bent the wrong way). This would mean that the EGR contact design has been defective from day one. Acting on this suspicion, I carefully bent the fingers around so they presented a smooth rounded surface to the resistive element. I used a pair of needle nosed pliers with a worn gripping surface so I didn't scratch the contact surfaces... you could also cover the pliers with tape or something for this operation. In the process, the fingers were slightly bent so they did not track exactly in the worn part of the resistive element. Cleaned up all the surfaces with contact cleaner and re-assembled.

It has been working perfectly ever since!

If I am right, perhaps Honda should fess up to this and issue a recall? I tried to call this to their attention, but got nowhere with the dealer and could find no way to do such a thing on their web site... :-? Oh well, it definitely seems fixed now, and I bet it never happens again.

 

Ok here we go again with another update on our EGR Valves. Thanks to PGREAVES we can turn over the EGR Valve wipes so they can transform into a spoon shape. We don’t need the sharp side of the wipe to scrape into the carbon path. Of course, do not take a new working EGR Valve a part just to fix the problem as mention. Now I suggest instead of using pliers to bent the wipes, simply remove the metal holder with a tiny screwdriver and the wipes come out easy.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7237/00038egrvalvehondainsig.jpg

Once the wipes are free use your fingers to turn them over and you are good to go. Put them back and good luck.

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/5909/00039egrvalvehondainsig.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3400/00040egrvalvehondainsig.jpg

Please report your experience, that is how we all learn, save and improve.

Thanks

 

Well, I have been dealing with the jerking a low throttle for a while now. I did the EGR soak in wd40 and cleaned the EGR plate.

Both made a slight difference but neither fixed the problem.

following the information in this thread I took the EGR valve apart expecting to see wipes that would be covered in crud. Mine were actually quite clean.

but since I had taken it apart anyways I flipped the wipes around and put it all back together. so far I have noticed very little if any bucking/jerking. I have only driven about 30 miles around town but it seems like just flipping those around fixed my problem.

also here is some info I got from honda to make sure the bucking is from the EGR:

DTC P1163 Set; Surging, jerking, bucking between 20 and 60 MPH
A faulty EGR valve in an M/T-equipped '00-03 Insight can cause a DTC P1163 (!/F sensor [sensor 1] slow response) to set, the car to surge, hesitate, jerk, or buck between 20 and 60 mph, or both to happen.

To check if the EGR valve is the culprit, unplug its 6P connector and test-drive the car. If the surge or hesitation goes away with this connector unplugged, test A/F sensor 1. If the sensor is OK, then replace the EGR valve and clear the DTC.

With the EGR valve connector unplugged during your test-drive, the ECM/PCM will set DTC P1491 (EGR valve insufficient lift) and the MIL will come on. Make sure you also clear that DTC

 

It is good to know how the honda guys deal with our EGR problem. I never took the car to them for that matter, but good to know, thanks MTGEEKMAN.

 

Nice thread, with some good information.
I have also been working in electronics for most of my adult life, and have opened and cleaned hundreds of pots of all types. I never saw a sharp wiper contact on any of them, they all have rounded ball shaped contact ends.
I suspect that the fingers may have also worn down, which is why they do not have the spoon shape?

 

It's too bad we don't have stickies for threads like this. Thanks to all for the valuable information! I wonder if these valves weren't assembled with the fingers backwards. It's certainly possible.

 

Can I assume that steady low throttle cruising is where the EGR valve gets most use, and say town driving with a lesser regard for throttle control would use it less?
If that is correct, then it is the peeps who put many motorway miles under their belts that are going to see EGR problems more often.

My 2001 MT car is suffering at 80,000 miles! The first owners 54,000 miles are an unknown, but the rest are gentle frugal highway motoring at about 55 mph. If this is going to happen quite often then I think the suggestion of the erstwhile Mr Perkins to perhaps fit a complete new linear pot outside the standard valve body may be a better long term answer, especially if the system self calibrates to the new pot...and given that new ones are super cheap from your local component supplier I think I will try to go this route.

I will go re-read the retepsnikrep chronicles to get his suggested pot values, but was wondering if anyone has measured the values a new EGR valve gives out at each end of it's stroke, and can tell me how long the stroke is.

 

A standard pot would have issues with the high temperatures that this valve assembly is operating at.

 

Here we go again in the search to improve or rather fix it cheaply our EGR Valves. In my quest to find some relatively economical and alternative improvement starts at the junk yard. After all the junk yard is like a Disneyworld for adult males despite the fact that pretty regularly I see females or could be she males, who knows? As I was waking one day through the import section I decided to look at the domestic as well and specifically GM models. At first I thought I saw a giant Insight, it turn to be Pontiac Aztec. I looked at the engine bay and there it was, an EGR Valve very similar to our valves. The ring that holds the top black part is very easy removable from the bottom part compare to our insight metal ring. I took the valve and looked the year the car was made, it was ‘00 model. After examination and testing at home the GM EGR Valve potentiometer was identical to ours about 5K ohms. With little fabrication such as shortening the pot wipe with about 5mm and little soldering I did attach the GM pot /top black part/ to our solenoid valve /bottom metal part/. I can proudly say it work just fine. As I said previously the GM and Honda Insight and many more cars EGR Valves are made by WELLS company. On the top of the GM Valve says made in Mexico. What a rollercoaster with this EGR Valves? Good luck, and keep us posted with your results.

 

That's a very good find. good detective work.

 

I think that GM EGR Valves are interchangeable/useable from 2000, '01 '02 '03 years.

 

Wells OEM EGR valve manufacturers



this explains the purpose of the EGR Valve

"the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve in 1972. Exhaust gas is recirculated to reduce the formation of Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx). NOx is created when cylinder combustion temperatures reach above 2500 F. By recirculating exhaust gases, the cylinder temperatures remain cooler. Today, emission standards have become increasingly more stringent. Since 1996, every vehicle sold in the United States was mandated to meet On-Board Diagnostic II standards (OBDII). OBDII systems included a monitoring system to ensure the vehicle never exceeds 1.5 times the Environmental Protection Agency standards without a driver alert warning."

I tried to locate a GM equivalent in the Wells e-catalogue, regret no success.

The Wells reference is EGR4196 for the 2000 Insight but I could not cross reference to a GM part

My faulty Insight valve is marked as 13079Z24 , I cannot find that number in the catalogue either.

If anyone else fancies a go, here is the Wells webpage

WELLS Engine Management Systems: O.E. Quality & Coverage for the 21st Century

EGR valves are under "emissions"

 

Just opened up the EGR valve and turned those fingers to the other way, went for a test drive, it seemed to be cure the jerky motion, the inside of the valve is like brand new no dirt of any kind, the PO must have replaced not too long ago, so, I think Honda had put together the valve wrong from the beginning. I wonder has Honda corrected the valve yet? I remember someone here said the service department from Honda did say they impoved the EGR valve.

 

EGR Valve

. I wonder has Honda corrected the valve yet? I remember someone here said the service department from Honda did say they impoved the EGR valve.

The part number for the EGR valve was 18011-PGM-020 when I purchased one last year.

I think that the 020 postfix signifies an updated spare part superceding another so the old stocks can be removed from the supply chain.

So perhaps Honda did tackle the problem. The Honda Jazz also had a high rate of Warranty claims for EGR valves, the two parts are almost identical, the orientation of the connector in relation to the manifold is the most obvious difference.

Are the parts the same price?

No, the Insight unit is about £25 less, I have checked!

 

I did the reverse the wiper fingers thing over the weekend. Like 60MPG, my EGR looked new on the inside. I did not have any of the issues that would normally indicate EGR problems, but from this thread, the Pot does seem to be assembled incorrectly.

I think I found a better way to seperate the Pot from the valve. Per Insight1, you pull until the the wires seperate. But, those wires can be unsoldered before seperation. On the top of the pot, the factory made the solder connections and then filled in the spots with a plastic filler/epoxy . You can drill out the filler/epoxy on those spots and then desolder the connection. Then when reassembling, resolder after the pot and valve are assembled. Then fill in the two holes with epoxy, or high temp silicone.

http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx72/randerson0248/Insight EGR valve/EGR.jpg

http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx72/randerson0248/Insight EGR valve/EGR4.jpg

In the picture of the pot, the hole I drilled is toward the bottom left in the picture. The shiny spot in the middle of the hole is the solder from the factory connection. The other hole to drill is on the opposite side of the pot, not visible in the photo.

Also, on reassembly, the little metal plate retainer that holds the fingers on wasn't holding as good as before I pried it off. So, I glued the fingers back on using JB weld epoxy.

BTW, even though I had no issues (that I could tell) with the EGR valve, I beleive I am getting significant better fuel mileage. I haven't driven it enough to be sure, but I think it is about 10% better.

I wonder if the GM EGR valve mentioned in earlier posts has the wiper fingers assembled the same as the Honda valve.

 

Silly question:

Has anyone tried just replacing it with the EGR from a more common small Honda model.

What about the early 00's Civic? The EGR valve for one of those runs 120-140 (a good bit cheaper than the 200 for an Insight)... probably cheaper and easier to find at the junkyard too. From the pictures, it even looks like has the same plug. Maybe the plate is shaped slightly different? Buy one of those and swap the plastic/electronics package from the top to the old Insight unit? Any takers?

Sam

 

Little up-date on mine GM- Insight Hybrid EGR Valve.

So far 5K miles, and the car is running fine. Some times when is too humid it buckles little for a sec and goes back to normal. Still going strong.

 

Nice where do I get the wiring diagram for the PIN outs for the EGR valve... I plan to do somethign similar to this but with a Honda EGR... Just from a newer 2009 Jazz. The valve is un-used and a recent ebay purchase of a new valve...

.. for a 2009 Jazz (UK)/Fit (USA)

The connectors are different but the design looks similar... And the flange looks like it can be rotated in 90 degree increments... So... What I plan to do it rotate the flange from the bottom... If this is possible.

This looks like it may be able to be rotated from the bottom:

The Insight EGR connector

Does anyone have pin outs for this?

Any help with the wiring of these two would be appreciated...

I may be after a defunct EGR valve for an Insight if any UK people have one..

 

insight1, I'm reading over your description and what it sounds like is that you cut 5mm off, put it on top, connected it and it's 'off you go' with a new EGR valve. I see your picture and you've got the bottom of your old one on top of the GM acquired replacement? I'm clearly missing something.

I realized that there aren't any Aztecs in the junkyard but I did notice that the service manual that I have for a past vehicle that I don't own anymore (97+ Grand Am/Malibu/Alero/Cutlass Haynes manual) shows a different looking top on the images for the 3.1 liter engine. Considering that the 3.4 liter engine is essentially the same engine, just bored out more and a few minor other changes. I might snag an EGR for further inspection. The entire unit looks the same other than a slightly different looking 'fin design' on the top. The mounting bolts on the bottom and the whole rest of the unit look like they could possibly be a match. ...maybe, maybe not. The next time I arrive at the junkyard I'll take one as the price on electric EGR's is only $11, the place sells parts dirt cheap and I think it's worth the gamble.

 

What it looks like to me is that the top of the GM egr valve is now on top of the honda insight egr valve. And now the top of the insight egr valve is just used so that he can connect the stock connector to it.

I picked one up at a junkyard from a pontiac transam and it had the # 12564563. It looks to be the same.