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For what it's worth as I recall the original IMA concept car used Super-capacitors.

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Just for fun: (If I remembered this correctly)
A123 20Ah punch cells 120-130 Wh/kg ~10 second bursts 800-2400 Watts each
F = (Ah x 3600) / Volts

10kw for ~10 seconds = ~28Wh @ ~144v = ~195mAh = ~4.9F
40kw for ~10 seconds = ~111 Wh @ ~150v = ~741mAh = ~17.8 F
120kw for ~10 Seconds = ~333 Wh @ ~150V = ~2.2 Ah = ~53.4 F

Remembering what happens to total Capacitance of capacitors in series.
1/Ctotal = 1/C1 + 1/C2 ... 1/Cn

For ~5F total from 50 capacitors (in series) you need each one to have ~250F
For ~18F total from 50 capacitors (in series) you need each one to have ~900F
For ~54F total from 50 capacitors (in series) you need each one to have ~2700F

Also keep in mind the terminal voltage from the capacitors will be dropping like a rock... to get a nominal ~150v you need to start with a much higher total voltage of capacitor bank.
 
I have about zero understanding of capacitors, but I want to talk anyway. Couldn't you do something with a capacitor bank that would allow each capacitor in the bank, or maybe a few capacitors in the bank, to discharge in sequence so that the voltage would remain more or less steady - assuming voltage "drops like a rock," as Ian wrote? Cuz off the top of my head it does seem like something that can handle say a 60-100 amp discharge for a maximum of about 10 seconds at about 144V would take quite a load off the battery pack...
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Krypto

Tell us a lot more about yourself, your experience and your idea.

To my mind if you don't know the answers then you should not be messing about with supercaps.

Yes you could connect a supercap bank directly in parallel with the ima battery if you know what you are doing and appreciate you won't get full use from the available capacity.

It might protect a weak pack from the peak/drain/regen currents but needs testing.

All the maths and power formulae are out there so it is quite possible to work out the likely result.

You seem to have a mixed bag of caps and should not IMO mix different sizes of caps in series.

Plenty of chat on here about supercaps do some searching about.
 
So why not connect it with a week battery to increase life ? I have 72 maxwell supercaps 36x2000f 36x3000f if I connect direct to battery
194.4v can be stored I would have 180 000f
If the 72 are in series, you have 33.3 f.
 
Ottawa Canada here ,I bought a 2000 Honda insight last week IMA is on but still working I believe the battery is the factory one 15 years old now and since I have 72 supercaps that can load super fast I am eather looking for someone in my area to work with or give me a bit of information as to what problems I might have.
Problems I see are people selling batteries so this info is not wanted here ?

Doing a search you find very little here that is why I am asking.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
It's not correct that the info is not wanted.
All the vendors on here are interested in research and development.

At the moment with current technology the nimh batteries are simple, effective and reasonably afforable.

Supercaps have been discussed on here many times and the conclusion has been, difficult to use effectively, expensive and quite dangerous.

Happy to be proved wrong, try them if you wish and report back and we will help as much as possible. However if you are unsure be very careful.
 
Couldn't you do something with a capacitor bank that would allow each capacitor in the bank, or maybe a few capacitors in the bank, to discharge in sequence so that the voltage would remain more or less steady
Can that be done ? ... absolutely.
But at a very high cost in terms of additional complexity and $ ... Power switching at the voltage and current rates , being done quickly , and with smart enough electronics to do this switching in a way to make the net output look 'smooth' ... that's not a small combination of system criteria.

For someone willing to invest the time / effort / and $ to install a super capacitor system .. I'd sooner recommend they increase the Farad size of the capacitor matrix they are using ... before that kind of electronics compensation... or a hybrid system combining the capacitors with a battery.
 
Just to get everyone reading this on the same page:

Electricity is the flow of electrons, and the flow of electrons through the motor is what makes the IMA work. current is how many electrons/second are passing through the circuit.

The major electrical difference between caps and batteries:
A cap is a tank to store electrons, it does not produce them, so it can be charged almost instantly, with the main limit being the resistance of the leads, and also discharged almost instantly.

A battery generates electrons from the plates chemical reaction, so it can produce electrons as long as the plates can be reformed and the electrons stripped off.

The main difference in capacity comes from the cap voltage dropping continuously as the electrons are sent into the load, since the cap does not make electrons, only store them.

The battery keeps making electrons while the plates are charged, and the voltage produced is very flat while as electrons are readily produced fast enough to satisfy the load, with little voltage drop during the whole process.

Since the insight was designed to use batteries, and batteries need to not be over discharged, the useable voltage range the inverter will accept is between ~110 and 190VDC, and the batteries are nearly fully discharged when the pack is at 120V.

To get the full capacity out of a supercap pack, one would need to discharge it to zero V, but the car can olny use > 110V, so one would only be using a portion of the capacitors energy before the cap dropped below the useable voltage.
In most full capacitor drive systems, dc/dc converters are used to take the dropping voltage of the caps, and dc/dc convert it so the output is always in the 110 to 190V range.

It gets more interesting when one considers a cap/battery parallel combo.
Here we use the cap to impruve the high current pulse performance of the battery, but since the battery volts only drops a bit when a big load is applied, it will only draw current from the cap as the battery drops in voltage, so one may see the 150V pack drop to 130 under a big power pulse, but the cap only helps keep the battery volts from dropping as fast as it would if the cap was not there, the caps will hold the voltage up longer, but will eventually drop to the battery V, but once the cap is at the lower loaded voltage of the battery, it is dead weight. Electrons can only flow when there is a voltage difference.

When the load is removed, the battery volts wants to jump up to its unloaded value,
but the battery now has the additional task of recharging the cap as its unloaded volts try's to rise to the batterys unloaded state, so the battery also needs to produce the recharge current for the cap, so its load continues compared to what it would have did if the cap was not there, so the cap boost was not free.

So the bottom line is that with cap in parallel with the batteries, one would not have a substantial performance improvement unless the car was driven hard, and for hypermiling where we try to minimize the load, it could be a liability due to the increased weight and complexity.

Supercaps are also low voltage devices,with most being 2.7V max per cap.
We can only store the max energy if we charge them up to nearly the max volts.
2 cells at the highest V we have seen. under heavy regen, packs can reach 190V
This works out to 1.58V/cell so even with 2 cells/cap, under heavy regen, we could see over 3 V with 2 cells in series, which exceeds the safe operating V of the single cap.
If we use 1 cap/cell, then we are not fully charging the cap, and will need twice as many.

No matter how you look at it, supercaps in a insight will probably not be a cost effective way to get better MPG.
My 48V booster battery that charges the main pack on the fly 5through a step up dc/dc converter worked pretty well, and that may be most cost effective way to boost the cars MPG.
 
It would seem that someone figured it out a good 15 or more years ago as the first Insight was going to use a cap bank. Maybe it failed testing so the "performance" car becomes a nickel metal eco car? :D

The Honda J-Vx concept car that the Insight was based on was a supercapacitor concept(possibly only on paper, not sure if this was tested). GM did tests with the EV1 using supercapacitors, among other experiments like using a jet engine and rotary engines(in different instances) to try to do what is being done with the Volt now with it's series-hybrid design.
 
Just to get everyone reading this on the same page....

So the bottom line is that with cap in parallel with the batteries, one would not have a substantial performance improvement unless the car was driven hard, and for hypermiling where we try to minimize the load, it could be a liability due to the increased weight and complexity.....
Overall, very cool run-down. Thanks. Personally, I was picturing a cap bank being used for higher performance, as in acceleration, power, rather than economy. It seems like the car uses the roughly 60A to 100A range very fleetingly, sparingly, for performance. If you want economy you drive/accelerate slower - and the car is kind of set up to push you to do that. Plus, aging packs punk-out in the higher-amp range. I was picturing a cap bank supplementing the pack, absorbing that 60A to 100A or so load range...
 
Thanks

Well thanks for the info but since I have 72 2.7v caps and a week battery I have nothing to lose by connecting them in they are sitting unused right now so might as well see what they can do.
36x2000f and 36x3000f would it make a dif which are connected first or no diff since all 72 have to be connected anyways ?
As for connecting them in where is the best place to connect them in at ?
 
Yikes!

The best way to connect them is not as straight forward as you would think,and has serious repercussions if not done correctly.
If you have to ask that question, I am afraid to elaborate.
Good Luck, and I would advise that you stock up on the $45 each 100A fuses, as I have a feeling that you will need them.
Good Luck
 
Discussion starter · #38 · (Edited)
You are wrong Krypto, but determined to believe otherwise. :(

Anyway it's been discussed before and the conclusion has been as we have stated.
Feel free to have a go and report back we will be very interested in your results.

Be careful.

The negativity you perhaps perceive is the fact that we don't want to help you hurt yourself with a bank of supercaps.
Your new here with an unproven ability/skill level, it would not be sensible for us to offer detailed advice if you don't appear to grasp the fundamental issues.

Anyway FWIW.

1) IMHO You should not be connecting in series caps of different capacities.

2) The best place IMO to connect them would be at the main battery terminals.

But you must have a method of equalising the voltage between the cap bank and the battery,
via a pre charge resistor before you engage any sort of main contractor to connect them directly together.
If you don't understand why or how to do that then forget the idea.

3) You must have a voltage equalising circuit on each cap so that all the cap voltages are equal.
 
Sorry Krypto,
I have been down this road many times. I have learned that some people just have not learned that one needs to understand fully what all the concerns and design factors are when working with this kind of power, and if your considering putting two size caps in series, and are unsure of where to connect, you are obviously not considering what needs to be considered as Peter said.
Had a guy burn his insight battery,and almost his garage, had a lady get knocked on her butt by the grid charger because she lost the side cover, and stuck her fingers in the hole while it was on.
I could go on and on. Luckily no one got killed.

If you saw the video of my solar capacitor bank being discharged, it only has 200Uf capacity
A fully charged supercap bank at 170V would be like a stick of dynamite compared to a small fire cracker (my solar capacitor bank).

If you got a variable lab power supply that has current regulated output,
a cheap 20V 2A unit like this
20V 2A Power Supply Single Output | QJ2002C | Distributed By MCM
This supply will limit the current to 2A, so you can connect it directly to the un charged cap bank, and watch the caps charge. at 2 A, it will likely take many hours to get the cap up to the 20V. This type of lab supply is available in many voltage and current combinations, but the price tends to get up there when you want more volts and more amps.
Just putting a big resistor between the pack and the voltage source will work, but since the caps are virtual short circuit to the voltage source. the resistor needs to be a 100 watt or more.
You could charge the supercaps on your bench and experiment and learn how the balancing circuits work, share what you find here,with photos, and we can try to guide you.
Good luck
stay safe, do your homework before hooking up anything.
 
I think another guy on here had that same idea, but ended up making a rig that charged them by solar power, then used a inch metal bar to discharge them in a dazzling array of sparks and a loud bang.

On another forum they use them to replace the starter battery and even include a balancer circuit to keep all the caps in check.

I knew THAT was coming...
 
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