Jack Rickard has some videos on these pouch cells if anyone here has not seen his videos. He is doing testing and making batteries out of these cells. Its quite interesing. These things put out a lot of power with little voltage sag. These should be a good replacement for the NiMh cells if you keep the batteries in their happy zone of 2.5v-3.5v. The Insight should keep them there if you have the right number of cells. I'm too lazy to look up the max and min numbers the Insight will do to do the math but it should work well.

 

I thought the HCH1 had 120 cells same as I1?

Anyway you need 50 x A123 cells (or equivalent Lifepo4) to match the 120 cells of a G1 Insight pack. That's what i use in both my lithium cars. The resting voltage of the A123 is about 3.3V.

So you would need a few extras for the extra cells in the HCH1/2? to match the 132 cell pack, whichever that is.

As I mentioned on another thread the Civic HCH1 should be landing in my hands in next week or so so I may bung a lithium pack in it for testing.

 

As I mentioned on another thread the Civic HCH1 should be landing in my hands in next week or so so I may bung a lithium pack in it for testing.

I may use the A123 283SP packs for testing if they arrive intact. 56 cells would match well with a HCH2 civic 156v system, but I think it can also be made to work with the HCH1 with the Voltage hack.

 

HCH1 Lithium Conversion

I think the idea is viable and doable at moderate cost.

Issues I forsee are.

1) Fitting A123 20ah cells into the stock case.

This is probably do-able but until I/we cut one about and try the fit we won't know.

The HCH1 has a big boot so a tray/box of cheap and higher capacity 40 or 60ah thundersky or hipower cased cells under a false floor might also be an option. I did this in my first phev conversion if you remember. They are also easier to interconnect and with anderson connectors could simply plug into the HCH1 guts behind the seat. Someone could do some measuring

2) Fooling the BCM voltage taps.

We can do this by tapping the pack at appropriate points or using the BCM fooler resistor matrix I use on the G1. (It's easy and not an issue)

3) We can migrate/move the temp sensors from the stock pack into the lithium pack. The BMS will also have temp sensors in the pack.

4) We can disable the PTC strips with a fixed value resistor and do not need the PTC strips. Easy

5) Fooling the SOC.

We can't use the Insight BCM interceptor to do this as the BCM & MCM are combined in the HCH1 and tapping the relevant signals will be very hard. We can however use the OBDIIC&C or a derivative of it to keep setting the car SOC to 19 bars as long as the lithium battery has some useable capacity. This could be made automatic and the OBDIIC&C programmed to respond to signals from the BMS to either keep the soc at 19 bars or if the battery is depleted force it to six bars which causes background regen and would prevent the battery being damaged.

6) Using the extra power.

Hopefully when I get a Civic HCH1 to work on over here I can progress the IMA control work we have been doing and get that working, then the extra capacity will be able to be used. I'm pretty confident we can get this going shortly.

I'm sure a few other minor issues might arise but nothing we can't fix. Thought's?

 

I think the idea is viable and doable at moderate cost.

I'm sure a few other minor issues might arise but nothing we can't fix. Thought's?

I agree ... it is a viable option ... especially for the DIYer.

I don't know how much past the DIYer type of stage we will be able to get it ... As HBR showed it is difficult to balance the market demand of the consumer vs the demands of production and QC... so I'm not sure about the 'kit' level concept described in the OP.

~$1,200 for batteries + $BMS + $Packaging + $Connections + $Installation

This type of product would defiantly be more of a battery upgrade with about ~3x the capacity and not just a battery replacement... which I think is a good thing ... and a much better fit for the other OEM system components.

 

Yeah, you know what, I'm silly, I was thinking of the HCH2 with 22 battery sticks. The HCH1 has only 20 sticks, same as the I1.

In terms of a kit, the main thing I was thinking was the BCM fooler/ptc strip resistors/other electronics required. Obviously there would be a PCB or 3 involved in this, but maybe something could be worked out similar to what you and Eli have done with the OBDIIC&C gauge. I am certainly willing to help to the extent I can (I'm sure I could work on ordering/assembling parts as long as volume isn't too high).

In the mean time, it looks like my only option is going to be buying (and paying for installation UGH! I don't think they'll just sell you one) a battery from the dealership.

As a side note, I hadn't even thought about a voltage hack for the HCH, but with all that extra battery capacity, pumping up the IMA output by ~20% would be amazing. And while we're doing all this other stuff, why not? I assume that would involve just adding some strategically placed resistors like in the I1... totally doable for me anyway.

Gonna have to buy a real real soldering station and ditch my cheapo Radioshack unit with the 15/30w switch though.

 

Maybe this is of interest. Ive found when I apply a load to the electrical system of the Newer Insight it can handle higher settings of the Enginer Phev kit without generating a p1586 code. Seems when the ELD is on it allows unexpected charging. Jack mentioned one day it maybe possible to hook up a lifepo4 pack directly with a set of diodes so the regen does not back feed the extra pack, but it allows the additional draw as needed. Now sure if he considered a BMS in the loop or if it would be needed. We have a 100.8 volt pack nominal, I see 95-117 in operation. 122 balanced.


Sent from my Autoguide iPod touch app

 

Intrested in Helping

I'm interested in helping any way I can.


My 2003 HCH was undrivable for a period of time while I did some body work on it, around 3 months. I charged the battery as much as I could before i parked it, and now after putting it back together and driving it I am getting the IMA light on and pulling codes P1600(the general code) and P1570 Battery Module Individual Voltage Input Problem code.

The dealer here had to check, but he said it was around $4k. I really like this car, and would like to get it back on the road as reasonable as possible. Right now it runs just fine off of the 12v battery but then the battery light comes on and I charge it.

Car has around 129k miles on it and has been a solid performer if I didn't get into an accedent. Beware: many parts on ebay that are listed for the HCH, are actually for a regular Honda Civic. My radiator mount that I welded in had some of the holes in the wrong spot. Quite a pain in the rear.


Thanks for your help.

 

So what happened?

Did y'all ever make the kit? It sounded fascinating. I need to do something with my 2007 hch battery, it's almost gone, and I would.hate to just put another NiMH in there.

 

Did y'all ever make the kit? It sounded fascinating. I need to do something with my 2007 hch battery, it's almost gone, and I would.hate to just put another NiMH in there.

AFAIK no 'kit' , has formed yet.

There are some examples of people who have done DIY Gen1 Insight IMA battery upgrades to LiFePO4 ... Peter I think did 3 or 4 different ones .. Mike built one for someone else .. Steve did one .. I'm slowly (turtle) working on mine.

Soo there are some examples .. but not yet a ... 'kit' .. or 'drop-in' unit.

 

Oh ok thanks... That's too bad... I guess I will have to go for the NiMH then. Job plus small kids equals too little time to play. Would you happen to have any guidance as to who I can get a good one from? I heard they are only guaranteed for 36 k miles unlike the originals which went longer.

 

1st I would say to consider servicing the existing battery... numerous options out there.

If servicing the existing battery can't help you or you have no interest in it .. than a replacement as a 2nd choice.

DIY 'play' can always save you money and be fun at the same time ... but if DIY is not an option and you want a more 'drop-in' kind of replacement.

I would not go to Honda for a replacement NiMH IMA battery , what they offer is not worth what they charge.

Of the various vendors out there .. 3 have so far seemed to have done better than the rest... I'd suggest researching threads and such here (InsightCentral) to determine which of the three you will choose.

BumbleBatteries

EVPowers

HybridReVolt

 

would you attempt to restore it by following the balance charge/discharge cycles that mike had originally developed? if you can get the current pack to handle the interactions with the BCM and the MCM and then just add a lifepo4 pack in parallel with the nimh.

i expect to do that when i have time. then use IMA C&C to suck all of the power i can from the lifepo4 buddy pack as a PHEV spoof.

for me that will be two 24S 40Ah 38120 headway packs in series to make a 48S lifepo4 pack to match the 120S of nimh at full charge.

and use two 72V lifepo4 chargers, with a charger attached to each 24S pack.

 

dnmun, good points and ideas.

Doesnt a few vendors offer a new bigger than stock replacement battery? Shouldnt that alone safely give more performance if not economy vs reinventing the wheel and going with a different battery?

 

my nimh pack, the IMA pack that was swapped out by honda in 2004 is still strong even though it finally had been pushed so far out of balance the previous owner donated it rather than repair it since he also was trapped in the honda dealer ripoff.

but after i restored by cycling it a few times (which included taking the pack apart and discharging it in parallel down to .2V for each stick), i think it will last a long time just as it is if i can keep balance charging it occasionally and then regularly doing the deep discharge again. but i will not ever have to take the pack apart again like i did. i think i can keep it more closely balanced now.

but the lifepo4 battery i already have, just have to put the cells together. build the battery. done that a bunch by now already.

the hard part will be doing the IMA controls.

 

Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback.

dnmun the things you say are very interesting but a bit over my head. I could deal with a kit - set of components and instructions - but to figure it out myself would be too much at this time I am afraid, too many kid furniture items to make, appliances to repair, etc. Still, if I might ask, how would a deep discharge help? My battery regularly loses charge, even if I go into a store and come out again its dead. Yes figuring out controls would be no easy task considering that they are bad. not only does Honda rob me of 30% of my battery capacity with their program, but the meter regularly shows fake "full charge" which results in weird performance.

Ian, I said "play" not to make light of things but because I enjoy working with my hands when I can but I try to stay realistic too. I am looking for a long term fix, and since I have 135k miles on my civic I feel like I got my money's worth out of the current battery. So I would like to get a new one. Thanks for the ReVolt and BB links they look like good companies. I just wish they offered lithium batteries instead of NiMH to have more capacity. Still, they seem like an upgrade and I like the 3 year warranty they offer.

 

you should watch eli's utube video of how to replace the battery in two hours. the only difficulty is the torx screws and the little screw in the main switch opening. taking the plastic shields off of the door pillar is not as hard as it feels when you start.

the honda engineers made it harder to replace than they should have but it is not hard.

 

Thanks dnmun. I don't know what video you mean but I did find a video on youtube for the 2 gen hch. I have torx wrenches. Should be no problem. Now, all I have to do is cough up 2.25k for a new NiMH battery... cough cough... at least it will be higher capacity/efficiency, at least according to BumbleBatteries.

 

i am batterygeek for awhile so i like this stuff already. but if you are familiar with tinkering then you should be able to handle analyzing the battery for defective cells that now have very little capacity left.

i wish i had saved eli's video link so you could watch it. hardest part is taking out all the screws and having to remove the B pillar trim and carpet. but once it is out then you can charge and discharge the battery without using the motor to recharge it.

you may not have the downtime available if it is a daily driver too. it can be driven with the battery out and temporary connections between the inverter and the DC/DC converter to allow the 12V battery to remain charged up.

anyway, those of us who have done this deep discharge cycling are really impressed at how much life is restored to the battery which is why i recommended considering that path. no guarantees though.

i also like to get people to learn new stuff. i think it is good for the brain. also gives confidence, a little at a time.