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This bulge discussion prompted me to go check the 5 Jeep modules purchased from JAG35 that I had in storage.

3 of 5 modules were at 43.1 volts (approx 3.59 V/cell). These modules seem to be ok.
The other 2 were at 47.3 volts (~3.94 V/cell) and they were not ok.

Image

These two modules are now being discharged to 0V.

I should have looked at the part numbers, but didn't.
 
John, I really appreciate all the time and research you are putting into this battery recall issue. I'm very excited to read that you expect to be able to implement some detection code in the firmware!

Much obliged,
Bryan
 
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Several mentions of discharging modules... What is the best way to do this? Just hook up a light bulb type fixture or is there a different procedure?

Does discharging the module eliminate the thermal event risk or just reduce it?
 
What is the part number on your cells?
My Samsung modules are all Module No. MP0214LT001B, Version H02. 4 of the 5 look like they have very similar serial numbers, 1 looks like it is from a later batch.

As I visually inspected my modules, the amount of end plate deflection seem fairly consistent, both ends of each module. This gave me (perhaps false) hope that this condition is "normal".

I would personally build a cheap backup battery out of them(48v system? I guess) away from any inhabitable structure and run them from 4v/cell down to 3.2v/cell for as long as they survive doing it. Maybe hook them up to some solar panels and use them to charge your insight?
Yes, I was thinking along those lines. Make a firebrick "fireplace" vented enclosure for them... Doubtless another project I don't have time for. However, solar is on my list.
 
Does discharging the module eliminate the thermal event risk or just reduce it?
Completely discharging a battery to 0v eliminates any risk of a thermal event. Discharging to 3v/cell significantly reduces the risk and scale of any thermal events. Most batteries don't have enough energy at 3v to actually catch fire - They just sit there and smoke for a bit.
 
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First, what a mess for you to have to deal with. You don’t deserve this. Thank you for taking all of this time on our behalf to make LiBCM as safe as possible!

You brought 5 FoMoCo modules to me at InsightFest. I strapped them down securely for the ride home. I then unloaded them and put them in the dining room. They haven’t moved since. They are all MP0217NS002A, part of the “bad” group. None of them are swollen. I’m happy using them as they are.

Sam
 
Discussion starter · #1,807 · (Edited)
The other 2 were at 47.3 volts (~3.94 V/cell) and they were not ok.
Yes, those are NOT ok. Wow, you win the award for most bowed module so far. Yikes!

I should have looked at the part numbers, but didn't.
Please take the time to gather and report the batch numbers at your earliest convenience.

On the two swollen modules, can you please also measure all twelve cell voltages, so we can see if one cell is vastly different than the others?

John, I really appreciate all the time and research you are putting into this battery recall issue.
It's not fun work, but it's certainly worth doing. Yet another reason why it may appear to outsiders that everything I do takes forever... proper analysis is a slow process. I'm still not done inspecting all the modules in my garage, although I should finish later tonight.

I'm very excited to read that you expect to be able to implement some detection code in the firmware!
Based on the data I've collected, I have several ideas about what Ford/VW/Jeep/Audi are looking for in the cell voltage data that would indicate cell failure. My plan is to err on a higher false positive rate, rather than underreport false negatives. I'll make sure LiBCM doesn't brick itself unless it can 100% confirm something is wrong. More details to follow, once I have an actual game plan (in a couple/few days).

Note that Samsung's initial remedy is an improved software detection algorithm. The existing (recalled) modules aren't actually replaced unless said software detects a failure. Therefore, Samsung will continue to gather data in their much larger installed user base.

Several mentions of discharging modules... What is the best way to do this? Just hook up a light bulb type fixture or is there a different procedure?
Discharging via light bulb will certainly work, but it will be slow if you do it to one module at a time. My recommendation is to place two modules in series and then connect them to the light bulb. Note that these lithium cells don't really 'flip' once they're empty, so you don't need to worry too much about reverse charging cells... these cells tend to stay at 0 volts, rather than reverse charging.

You really only need to keep the light bulb connected until the module voltage drops below 30 volts. At that point you should verify all cells are below 2.5 volts. At that voltage there basically isn't any energy left inside the cells, so they are essentially safe at that point.

You can of course keep the light bulb connected even longer... pulling all the way down to 0 volts if you have the patience for it. That will add a very small additional safety margin, but either state (2.5 volts/cell or 0.0 volts/cel) is MUCH safer than the modules as-is (e.g. at 3.5 volts/cell, etc).

Note that the threaded terminal posts themselves are NOT electrically connected to the module. Put another way, if you connect an alligator clip to the threaded post, it isn't guaranteed to make electrical contact with the lithium cells. Instead, you must make electrical contact with the nickel plated 1x1" square terminal surrounding the post. The easiest method to achieve electrical contact is to use a ring terminal and nut.

Does discharging the module eliminate the thermal event risk or just reduce it?
@AfterEffect already answered this question correctly in #1805, but in the interest of safety I will answer it again:
Yes:
-discharging all cells below 2.5 volts virtually eliminates the thermal event risk.
-discharging all cells to 0.0 volts entirely eliminates the thermal event risk. Note that the cells could swell more, but that doesn't pose any additional thermal event risk, as the cells have zero remaining energy when fully discharged. Obviously you would never want to recharge these cells again.

My Samsung modules are all Module No. MP0214LT001B, Version H02. 4 of the 5 look like they have very similar serial numbers, 1 looks like it is from a later batch.
That batch number is NOT listed in the recall. Your modules are NOT included in this recall.

That you have swollen – yet not recalled – modules supports my theory (in #1792) that Samsung hasn't cast their recall net wide enough. In other words, given that Samsung doesn't actually know the root cause, I suspect that Samsung is merely recalling those batches where a failure has actually occurred. Based on the limited published information, I suspect that every 47Ah Samsung SDI module manufactured to date has the same failure rate risk.

Of course I am still very confused how it is that ALL of your modules are swollen. Can you post pictures of each aluminum end plate on each module? Please do this with a straight edge and orthogonal camera angles, so I can better judge how much deflection your modules have. I want to make sure you're not scrapping modules that aren't actually 'bad'.

FYI: I have numerous non-swollen MP0214LT001B modules. In fact, none of the ~160 modules I've inspected so far are swollen anywhere near as bad as the ones you and @Bull Dog have posted.

As I visually inspected my modules, the amount of end plate deflection seem fairly consistent, both ends of each module. This gave me (perhaps false) hope that this condition is "normal".
I am working on what exactly 'acceptable' deflection is, but it's based solely on the ~QTY220 modules I'm inspecting. My off-the-cuff guess is that deflection beyond a couple mm from a straight tangent edge is too much. More guidance to follow.

Yes, I was thinking along those lines. Make a firebrick "fireplace" vented enclosure for them... Doubtless another project I don't have time for. However, solar is on my list.
I have a CMU block 'fireplace' in my backyard where all the banished modules go. I'm about to have to make it bigger.

First, what a mess for you to have to deal with. You don’t deserve this. Thank you for taking all of this time on our behalf to make LiBCM as safe as possible!
It's certainly not ideal. Really takes the wind out of your sails, but it's beyond my control. Here we are, let's deal with it.
I can only imagine how much more brutal it's going to be for Samsung SDI. LG Chem's Bolt recall ended up costing them $1.5B. We're table scraps compared to that number. I'd much rather be dealing with a niche product like LiBCM than orchestrating the recall at Samsung SDI corporate.

You brought 5 FoMoCo modules to me at InsightFest. I strapped them down securely for the ride home. I then unloaded them and put them in the dining room. They haven’t moved since. They are all MP0217NS002A, part of the “bad” group. None of them are swollen. I’m happy using them as they are.
I still have zero confidence that recalled modules (e.g. MP0217______) are any more or less dangerous than non-recalled modules (e.g. MP0214_____). Samsung states they don't know the root cause, so while blindly adding "process improvements" might improve the product in other ways, there's no guarantee it will actually fix the root cause.

I may amend this opinion if Samsung releases more data at a later date, but based on their statements thus far it just seems wishful to think that generic process improvements have actually addressed the root cause. I'm particularly baffled at their statement that they've added 100% optical inspection to the cell manufacturing process... but then also propose that the root cause is likely due to in-field micro stress which occurs after the cells are manufactured. In other words, how does optical inspection during manufacturing catch failures that occur after the modules are out in the real world?

So then at this moment my thought is that those of us who choose to continue using these 47Ah Samsung SDI modules... are doing so with the understanding that there's additional risk. Based on the recall information I've read so far, the failure rate is very low. Of course, we can re-evaluate the risk tolerance if the failure frequency increases as time marches on.

Overall this is a huge wrench in the project, but I'm going to fearlessly march on. Everyone has their own risk tolerance. Some potential (and present) 47Ah LiBCM customers might choose to pass on the project, which is totally acceptable. Based on the information I have right now, I'm choosing to continue using the 47Ah Samsung SDI modules I already have installed in my car (some of which are on the recall list). As I've stated previously, I have about the same confidence level in Samsung SDI modules whether or not they're on the official recall list.

Right now my goals are to finish gathering data from the ~QTY220 modules in my (attached) garage. After that I'll need some time to process that data. The end goal then is to come up with software algorithms to detect suspect cell behavior prior to letting out the magic smoke.
 
Discharging via light bulb will certainly work, but it will be slow if you do it to one module at a time. My recommendation is to place two modules in series and then connect them to the light bulb. Note that these lithium cells don't really 'flip' once they're empty, so you don't need to worry too much about reverse charging cells... these cells tend to stay at 0 volts, rather than reverse charging.
Just don't accidentally short them both together when you are hooking them up. It's quite painful.
 
Image

Image


I took the below voltages after gently discharging the modules from 47.3 volts to 44 volts over the course of 36 hours. I paused the discharge process to take these measurements.

Module 1
3.670
3.672
3.671
3.672

3.671
3.672
3.673
3.672

3.673
3.673
3.672
3.673


Module 2
3.666
3.669
3.668
3.670

3.670
3.671
3.672
3.672

3.670
3.671
3.673
3.672

Image
 
Can you post pictures of each aluminum end plate on each module?
Here you go (and now I know how to use Warpinator...)
Module #1 positive end:
Image

Module #1 negative end:
Image

Module #2 positive end:
Image

Module #2 negative end:
Image

Module #3 positive end:
Image

Module #3 negative end:
Image

Module #4 positive end:
Image

Module #4 negative end:
Image

Module #5 positive end:
Image

Module #5 negative end:
Image
 
Just throwing my 2 cents here... The warping would also be due to the machining of the aluminum plates, I've seen aluminum warp a lot, specially when you're machining a good chunk off the middle section.
 
This isn't my area of expertise, but I'm under the impression all lithium batteries swell to some degree when charged, and shrink when discharged. That's why they're put under compression in the first place. The risk of damage from swelling is highest during the first few cycles, but every cell will still shrink and expand to some degree during normal use.
 
Discussion starter · #1,813 · (Edited)
First off:
For the time being, I don't recommend discharging modules down to 0.0 volts/cell. Doing so will permanently render the module unusable, whereas we are still gathering information on how to proceed. If you feel the need to discharge modules before we have final guidance, my recommendation is to discharge to 3.4 V/cell, which is ~10% SoC. Storing modules at 10% SoC is much safer than fully charged modules, and is also recoverable (whereas discharging to 0.0 volts is not). An even easier option is to simply place the modules outside until we have further guidance.

...

Over the past few days I inspected QTY220 modules for visual and electrical failure signs.

A: Recall results (from the modules I've inspected over the past few days):
-QTY195 MP0217NS002A modules, which are on the recall list, and;
-QTY25 MP0214NS002B modules, which are not recalled.

As I've mentioned previously, I'm not convinced that whether or not a module is on the recall list is actually relevant. Given that Samsung doesn't understand the root cause, it's illogical to conclude that only those LX68 modules on the list could contain the (unknown) failure mechanism. I suspect Samsung's recall list only contains batch numbers where a failure has actually occurred.

Without a root cause, I suspect that all LX68 modules are equally as likely to contain the (unknown) failure mechanism. Therefore, I think we should treat all LX68 modules as suspect, and adjust our risk tolerance levels the same amount, whether or not your specific modules are recalled. Put more simply, I propose we treat ALL LX68 modules as if they could contain the (unknown) defect.

B: Voltage results¹ (from the modules I've inspected over the past few days):
-QTY215 modules have less than 8 mV delta between highest and lowest cell voltage, and;
-QTY5 modules have higher cell delta. Specifically: 11 mV, 14 mV, 19 mV, 24 mV, 25 mV.

These five modules have higher internal cell discharge rates than all others. The worst performing module – with 25 mV delta between cells – has lost ~0.5% SoC discharge over several months, which is ~235 mAh. Therefore, the individual cell that's 25 mV less than the other cells inside that module has ~100 uA internal cell leakage. That leakage is ~17x higher than the QTY2635 other cells I tested.

However, these QTY5 modules with 'higher' self discharge are still well within Samsung's specified 3%(max)/month² self-discharge rate (versus the 0.5% worst case I observed after several months). Since we're comfortably within Samsung's specifications, I don't know whether these outlier voltages are noteworthy.

I've placed these QTY5 modules into my daily driver for further testing. LiBCM can certainly detect 100 uA leakage by logging per-cell BMS discharge time over several days... but again, I'm not certain the 100 uA internal cell leakage I've observed on the worst performing module actually indicates the separator contains the "micro stress" defects mentioned in the recall. In other words, it's unclear whether or not the voltage deviation on these five modules is an indicator that the separator is failing.

C: Deflection results (from the modules I've inspected over the past few days):
In general, most of the modules I inspected had visible deflection. Deflection wasn't appreciably different between recalled and non-recalled modules. None of the modules I inspected had more than 1 mm of deflection.

Here are two modules from my car that are each approaching 1 mm deflection (right click the image for a much larger version):
Image

This picture is taken in such a way as to minimize optical distortions. Specifically, the camera:
-is placed far from the modules, and;
-is optically zoomed in as much as possible, and;
-optics have minimal curvature, and the modules are well within frame to further reduce distortion, and;
-has diffuse lighting entirely surrounding the sensor, and;
-is mounted orthogonal to the battery top surface, and;
-the (known straight and parallel edged) ruler is verified to actually be straight and parallel in each digitized image.

Samsung specifies the "maximum allowed elongation at end of life" is 5 mm²:
Image

Unfortunately, Samsung doesn't provide any guidance on what the 'elongation' measurement is. Therefore, the safest assumption is that each aluminum end plate can deflect up to 2.5 mm before the module no longer meets Samsung's specification. I can't conceive any other worst case interpretation, but am open to suggestions. In other words, if your modules are bowing less than 2.5 mm, it would appear they are within Samsung's specification.

Honestly, prior to obtaining this official Samsung specification, I was going to set the limit at 1.5 mm deflection... maybe even 1.0 mm. 2.5 mm feels like too much, but that appears to be the specified limit (unless I'm interpreting the spec sheet incorrectly).

I am still performing a test to determine whether the deflection magnitude appreciably changes at different SoC percentages. (edit: updates below).

FYI: One additional note about the end plates:
Samsung's mechanical drawings² clearly show why there appears to be a small protrusion behind the insulator directly abutting each aluminum end plate:
Image


The two ~20 mm half-circular cutouts on the 'Insulation Membrane' strongly suggests that Samsung's design allows for the aluminum 'Plate End Support' to deflect. These cutouts are almost certainly designed to reduce localized pressure that would otherwise occur as the 'Plate End Support' flexes. Without these cutouts, localized pressure would occur due to the two slots at the top of the 'Plate End Support'. These cutout in the 'Plate End Support' exist to provide clearance for the plastic tabs that secure the plastic high voltage insulator (not shown).

...

Overall, my days-long analysis of QTY220 modules didn't yield any concrete results. The QTY5 deltaV(cell) outlier modules warrant additional analysis, but whether or not they are actually outliers remains unknown.

...

Next I'm going to theorize software algorithms to test for the defect. As I've noted previously, Samsung's first recall remedy is to install software that can detect defective cells prior to catastrophic failure. Right now I have two leading theories:

1: Test for abnormal internal cell leakage, using per-cell balancing timer, and;
2: Test for abnormal voltage recovery after heavy acceleration (as Ford is doing in their test).

...

Footnotes:
¹module test history prior to storage (this happened months ago):
-charged to ~85% SoC, then;
-all cells in each module balanced to within 1 mV, then;
-QTY4 or QTY5 modules (enough for one car) discharged into a 14 ohm load (~3300 watts), then;
-discharge continued until SoC reached ~27%, then;
-each pack was verified to have less than 8 mV cell delta, then;
-modules stored at ~27% SoC (~3.54 volts/cell).


²Don't ask me how I got this information. Samsung is notoriously secretive about their specifications. Fortunately, an anonymous source helped me out with this detail. To protect their privacy, I will not discuss how I procured this information. If moderators require proof, please send a PM and I will discuss with John Doe which information they are willing to share. Note that the graphics shown are slightly modified to obfuscate the confidential data sheet I retrieved them from.
 
Discussion starter · #1,814 · (Edited)
Here you go (and now I know how to use Warpinator...)
Module #1 positive end:
Module #1 negative end:
Module #2 positive end:
Module #2 negative end:
Module #3 positive end:
Module #3 negative end:
Module #4 positive end:
Module #4 negative end:
Module #5 positive end:
Module #5 negative end:
Based on the data presented in my previous post, I suspect your modules are within Samsung's specified deflection tolerance range (2.5 mm, as noted above). They are also within my draft deflection limit (i.e. 1.5 or 1.0 mm), which I came up with prior to obtaining Samsung's official value. Your modules appear fine.

Just throwing my 2 cents here... The warping would also be due to the machining of the aluminum plates, I've seen aluminum warp a lot, specially when you're machining a good chunk off the middle section.
Based on the exploded mechanical view (see above), Samsung is using flat-machined plates. As the only engineer at a company that has manufactured around a million 6061 aluminum parts, the end plate geometry would have minimal deflection. Samsung has likely engineered their manufacturing process such that any (slight) deflection would bow the other direction, hence any manufacturing deflection is negated during compression.

This isn't my area of expertise, but I'm under the impression all lithium batteries swell to some degree when charged, and shrink when discharged. That's why they're put under compression in the first place. The risk of damage from swelling is highest during the first few cycles, but every cell will still shrink and expand to some degree during normal use.
Absolutely. The question is "how much deflection is acceptable". And it would appear the official answer from Samsung's datasheet is 5 mm (which I suspect means 2.5 mm per side).
 
Thank you for the incredibly detailed analysis. Putting this out there since it hasn't been directly addressed -

Based on the recall and new evidence, I would assume that we should treat self-discharging cells as HIGHLY suspect. Everyone's risk tolerance will be different, but do you have a threshold at which you would recommend that a module be removed from the vehicle and safely stored?

My friend's Insight which had one significantly discharged cell comes to mind as a near-worst-case scenario, although there have been no further developments.
 
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Discussion starter · #1,816 ·
This bulge discussion prompted me to go check the 5 Jeep modules purchased from JAG35 that I had in storage.

3 of 5 modules were at 43.1 volts (approx 3.59 V/cell). These modules seem to be ok.
The other 2 were at 47.3 volts (~3.94 V/cell) and they were not ok.
I've superimposed a ruler onto the swollen module you posted:
Image


You should repeat the above with an actual metric ruler just to make sure my digitally added measurements are accurate.
It would appear that your module is within Samsung's specified deflection limit... and would be within my proposed 1.5 mm limit (but not my 1.0 mm limit).

Regardless, that bulge is quite uncomfortable to look at. I remain convinced that whether or not this bulging is an issue, it is unrelated to the recall we're discussing. Given how many bulging modules our small community has 'uncovered', I would suspect that Samsung is already aware that such bulging exists... and equally hopeful that if it were an issue, Samsung would have issues a bulging-specific recall by now. Surely we aren't the largest community using these modules?
 
Discussion starter · #1,817 ·
I am still performing a test to determine whether the deflection magnitude appreciably changes at different SoC percentages.
In my testing, I was unable to observe any appreciable deflection as a function of SoC. Specifically:
-All QTY220 cells I visually inspected over the past few days were at ~27% SoC, and had been stored at that SoC at the same room temperature for months. These modules had deflection levels ranging from 0.0 mm up to just below 1.0 mm, and;
-I charged a '27% SoC' module with 0.0 mm initial deflection up to 4.1 V/cell, and did not notice any deflection, and;
-I charged a '27% SoC' module with 0.9 mm initial deflection up to 4.1 V/cell, and did not notice any deflection, and;
-I fully discharged a module from my personal daily driver – which I nearly always leave plugged in at 82% SoC – and did not notice any deflection change. I then discharged this module all the way down to 0.0 volts and still didn't notice any deflection change.

My conclusion is that deflection change is highly a function of time, and is minimally related to instantaneous SoC. Temperature might also impact deflection, but again all QTY220 modules I tested are stored in the same room with the same SoC... and yet they have a wide deflection range, even amongst non-recalled modules.

Overall, my conclusion is that deflection below 2.5 mm is acceptable, per Samsung's official specification. I concede this conclusion is unsettling.
 
Discussion starter · #1,818 · (Edited)
Thank you for the incredibly detailed analysis. Putting this out there since it hasn't been directly addressed -

Based on the recall and new evidence, I would assume that we should treat self-discharging cells as HIGHLY suspect.
Yes, I agree that high self-discharge is a prime suspect. However, it's worth repeating that the self discharge I observed was only 0.5% SoC over several months, whereas Samsung's specified rate is 3%(max) per month.

Based on Samsung's recall estimate that 1% of vehicles are affected - and assuming that only one cell is affected in each affected vehicle - the actual estimated cell failure rate is QTY1 out of every QTY8400 cells. Given that my QTY220 modules contain QTY2640 total cells, I initially expected there was a one in three chance (2640/8400) that a single defective cell existed in my entire inventory.

Since I actually measured QTY5 cells with outlier voltage deltas, my detection rate is ~15x higher than Samsung's estimated failure rate... more like 18x higher if you don't include the QTY25 cells in my inventory that aren't on Samsung's official recall list (none of which had deviant cell voltage deltas).

Everyone's risk tolerance will be different, but do you have a threshold at which you would recommend that a module be removed from the vehicle and safely stored?
I do not yet have a failure threshold for the the test I previously proposed:
1: Test for abnormal internal cell leakage, using per-cell balancing timer, and;

If I set the threshold to fail the QTY5 outlier modules I observed, that would yield a very high false positive rate. To reiterate, we have no idea whether or not the high cell voltage delta I observed on QTY5 modules is actually related to the recall at hand. If there is a causal link, then Samsung's "1% of cars are affected" estimate seems off by a factor of fifteen (i.e. their statement should read "15% of cars are affected".

My friend's Insight which had one significantly discharged cell comes to mind as a near-worst-case scenario, although there have been no further developments.
When I initially tested these QTY220 modules months ago, I noted several modules with an outlier cell. While sitting on shelves in my garage over the past few months, the vast majority of these modules did not re-developed a large delta voltage offset.

In my initial testing (months ago), one module had a 146 mV cell delta. That cell was then balanced according to the procedure I outlined in footnote '1'¹ in post#1813. After sitting on a shelf for several months, this module's cell voltage delta was only 4 mV, which is the same as more than half the modules I just tested.

Of particular note, most of the outlier cells in my initial testing (months ago) were cell#8. At the time I had assumed this correlation indicated that something about Ford's BMS circuitry consumed more current from cell#8.

Of the QTY5 outlier modules in my latest testing:
-QTY2 did not have notable deltas in my initial testing (months ago), and;
-QTY3 did have notable deltas in my initial testing (months ago).

...

It would be really nice if Ford/Audi/Samsung/VW/Jeep would share their software algorithm. I'll email Samsung SDI again to see if they can provide guidance, but it would appear they're only interested in discussing these details with paying OEMs.
 
If I set the threshold to fail the QTY5 outlier modules I observed, that would yield a very high false positive rate.
Would it be worthwhile to add that functionality and set the threshold at or slightly above the rate found in our known failed module, then adjust over time as more concrete data is found?

Or is there concern this would introduce a false sense of safety for users with potentially still faulty modules?


It would be really nice if Ford/Audi/Samsung/VW/Jeep would share their software algorithm. I'll email Samsung SDI again to see if they can provide guidance, but it would appear they're only interested in discussing these details with paying OEMs.
Agreed... I have also reached out to several contacts I have, but I do not have high hopes. The NHTSA would be the most likely point of contact to respond.
 
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Of particular note, most of the outlier cells in my initial testing (months ago) were cell#8. At the time I had assumed this correlation indicated that something about Ford's BMS circuitry consumed more current from cell#8.
This reminds me of something I've noticed in my cell / module testing - the outside cells in each module (let's say, cells 1 and 12 in the Fit modules, and 1 and 14 in the Prius modules) have all had higher cell voltage than the inner cells. Every single one.

I've found this also has tended to (slightly) come back after I have balanced the cells in the middle of the SoC, if I charge them to full.
 
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